Town Hall: Built for More

In our latest Town Hall, Mason Pashia leads a conversation on the transformative role of Out-of-School Time (OST) programs in preparing youth for the future of work. We explore how these programs serve as a catalyst for skill development and personal growth, highlighting insights from the book “Built For More: The Role of OST in Preparing Youth for the Future of Work” and discussing the importance of developing 21st-century skills like creativity and critical thinking.

The event dives deep into the intersection of education and workforce readiness, introducing Getting Smart’s categorization of learning environments: traditional classroom settings, hybrid models, and the expansive opportunities provided by OST. This shift underscores the importance of engaging young people in real-world learning experiences. Byron Sanders, former CEO of Big Thought, shares insights into how OST programs can nurture entrepreneurship and agency, emphasizing the need for flexible and authentic learning pathways. The discussion also highlights the role of policy in advancing OST, with organizations like Education Reimagined advocating for systemic changes and credentialing frameworks.

In the final segment, we explore the “superpowers” necessary for thriving in a rapidly changing work environment, such as adaptability and collaborative skills. The podcast underscores the dual nature of OST as both a platform for empowerment and a space for innovation, urging listeners to foster a connected approach to learning. As we call for schools and districts with exemplary OST programs to share their practices, the conversation closes with a call to action for educators, policymakers, and communities to prioritize OST as a key component of education, ensuring future generations are well-equipped to navigate the challenges and opportunities of tomorrow.

Outline

• (00:00) Introduction and Welcome
• (04:17) Discussion on Open Enrollment
• (08:48) The Importance of Out-of-School Time
• (16:36) Performance and Personal Growth
• (20:20) Learning Ecosystems and Community Engagement
• (28:26) The Importance of Out-of-School Development
• (41:12) Personalized Learning Pathways
• (44:13) Closing Thoughts and Future Directions

Introduction and Welcome

Mason Pashia: Hey all. Welcome to another Getting Smart Town Hall. I am Mason Pashia with Getting Smart, thrilled that you all are here today. Today we’re talking about out-of-school time and a book that came out, I believe last summer or fall, called Built For More. We’re joined by some of the folks who played a major role in that book and were highlighted in it.

So we’re going to hear some great stories as well as highlight the collective intelligence of the group. If you haven’t been to a town hall before, we always start an event with a poem. It’s something we’ve been doing for quite some time now. I’m really excited that today we are joined by Rambeau, a poet who was previously part of the Big Thought program, which is super exciting.

So Rambeau, thanks for being here. Go ahead and give us a poem to start us off today. And then, as folks are listening, feel free to drop things in the chat that resonate with you.

And at the end, we may have a minute or two for reflection as well. So, Rambeau, take it away. Thanks for being here. Absolutely.

Joshua Rambeau: Thank you for allowing me to be here. Can everyone hear me clearly?

Yep. Most of these spoken moments can easily be subscribed to me or you. I think we will all oblige to the open enrollment to a time when we could be mentally and emotionally defined by either of the two simplistic words: oblivious and aloof, a speaker. The potent temporal pocket that occurs for us all is commonly described as youth.

I’m talking intermittent ambitions. Typically with different descriptions, the talent and tools that have been earned are gifted. In addition, with some arithmetic applied to the statistics, one can imply that unity is multiplied even in the presence of the vision. The abstract is we need to magnify the similarities, not the difference.

Those with the ears to hear and the eyes to see this may be evident. This is a small world spinning on its axis faster than how propeller spent. Generationally speaking, time is relevant. We need to relish this, dog. We need organizations with big thoughts to assist in the people’s development. Imagine being prepared for potential economic situations for the next move to be the best move.

First step is education. Improving skills to pay for more than just the bills is a globally desired destination. Teaching knowledge that evolves into wisdom, comprehension in the networks and the systems around us, and within us. With this at hand, career advancement would take place before the hair starts thinning.

This is the way to proceed. Helping future generations help themselves is what any long-standing industry needs. This will provide a structure that would essentially shatter all illusions. Then we could focus on collaboration and partnership, equity and inclusion. But who knows? People are going to do what they do.

But I’m sure most of these moments can easily be subscribed to me or you. I think we would all oblige to the open enrollment to a time where we could no longer be mentally and emotionally defined by either of the two simplistic words really. But I believe we can’t afford to be oblivious or aloof.

Thank you.

Byron Sanders: Fire, I had to come off of mute. Sorry. Off fire. I’m glad you enjoyed it, Byron. Glad you enjoyed that.

Mason Pashia: That was awesome, Rambeau. Thank you for sharing that.

Joshua Rambeau: Really appreciate it. I really appreciate it.

Mason Pashia: There’s a little, an

Joshua Rambeau: opportunity,

Mason Pashia: little wa little waterfall in the chat if you weren’t able to see that while you were going.

Joshua Rambeau: It is great. I’m really glad you guys liked it. I definitely put some time and some research into it. Tried to give a little big thought. Shout out in there as well. I don’t know if you guys seen that. Nailed it. For sure. For sure. Glad you guys liked it. I really appreciate you guys having me on. Of course, if you’re able to stick around Rambeau we’d love to pull you into the conversation, I’m sure as we go when we’re talking about big thought.

Mason Pashia: But if you gotta jump, that’s totally all right. Just

Joshua Rambeau: definitely stick around.

Mason Pashia: Cool. You give Josh a full tank at 6:00 AM Hawaii time, let’s go. That’s all you can ask for on these things, so that’s fantastic. And everybody, we will share the words and the recording of the performance as well from Rambeau.

So for those who wanna go back and listen more closely, ’cause there was a lot of gold there, so, perfect.

Joshua Rambeau: Appreciate it. All right. Thank you guys liked it.

Mason Pashia: Yeah. Thank you Rambeau. I’m gonna move your spotlight now and share my screen again.

All right, Tom, I’m gonna bring you in here.

Discussion on Open Enrollment

Mason Pashia: Who are we talking to today and what are we covering?

Tom Vander Ark: Just a couple words of thanks to Rambeau for a provocative opening. Rambeau, I keep processing open enrollment. That came up a couple of times. That’s a loaded thought. You gotta say more about that. What’s open enrollment? It’s both a beautiful thing and it’s tricky.

What, take a couple more sentences about what’s behind that.

Joshua Rambeau: Okay. So my idea behind it is, well, I feel like open enrollment definitely goes into more. A lot of, you know, like across the board. Like I feel like that’s one of the first things that one would think about when they hear those words put together.

But it’s also used in a way that would indicate that. It’s voluntary, but as well as like a rite of passage because I’m speaking about youth in general and the fact that we can all, regardless of the age that we are now, we can all think back to a time in which we were youth. So I feel like in that, that pocket of age, like it’s our open enrollment into a time period that we can all more or less identify with as, as well as it, as well as it going in line with, you know, with school and being educated, whether it be, you know, middle school, elementary, school, college whatever.

So Have you.

Tom Vander Ark: Yeah. Thank you Rambeau. Thanks Josh for that thought. I saw Amy Anderson on here from Reschool, Colorado. It made me think about unbundled learning about kind of extended opportunity, particular subject for today out-of-school learning. But the idea of enrollment Rambeau to, to me, points to learner agency.

And when I think about the future of work, not just the future of work, but the future of human expression, of citizenship the future of commerce and contribution it really comes down to agency and young people that have a sense of purpose and direction and the self-possession, right?

To understand their gifts and strengths and and the opportunities around them so that they. Can enroll in expression, in citizenship, in in commerce. So this idea of open enrollment, it, it requires more of us as agents and actors. And second point we’re heading for this I we’re entering this new phase of not just being an individual contributor, but contributing in a team.

And sometimes that team is is, carbon, humans and silicon agents, right? And so we’re enrolling into experiences that are often amplified and with agents in co-intelligence at our side. Another reason to think about it, that idea of enrolling in the work, enrolling in expression, enrolling in in citizenship.

So, anyway, I, we really appreciate you being here. And the thought that you’ve given us today is such a, it’s such a gift. ’cause I really spent the last few months thinking hard about the link between the future work and deeper learning, which I think is a particularly productive response to what’s happening in the world.

But I’ve been really focused on that, what happens in school. I’m thinking a lot about the work of Michael Fullan, about the leadership of High Tech High and the deeper learning community. They gathered last week in San Diego, I. This beautiful book and conversation today takes us a step further and says, actually where we can do deeper learning.

The meaningful agentic experiential super relevant work is where we can do it the fastest, maybe the best is in the out of school space. And this new book built for More is really the first and best case for out of school time being a critically important response to equip young people to as Rambeau said, to enroll in the opportunity space.

The Importance of Out-of-School Time

Tom Vander Ark: So we’re joined by some great friends of Getting Smart, Byron Sanders, one of our board members former CEO at Big Thought in Dallas where this work got started. Bobby McDonald a partner of Big Thought and ecosystem sponsor at Education Reimagined and also Christopher Street the All Star Project also like Byron in Dallas, but like Bobby lighting up out-of-school ecosystems around the country.

Welcome to the three of you. Congrats on this great new book Built For More. There’s a picture of it there on your screen. Byron, what, say a little bit more about how you’re thinking about the future of work and the, this interesting connection with the out-of-school space.

Byron Sanders: One just grateful to you guys for platforming this conversation.

Oftentimes, we, OST people got a little chip on our shoulder. We’re, you know, sometimes not as critically thought of in the education journey, but but man, you know, if you think about 24 hours in the day, how many of ’em are in the school building? Everything else is literally out-of-school time.

So, that’s actually one of the things just from a utilitarian standpoint, it probably would be good for us to really target this strategy to not only be about safe places for kids outside of school to not just be about an additional place to go get a meal, not just be about childcare.

All of those things are critically important, but man, to your point. It was a it’s a, it’s an unused and untapped resource if we don’t really lean in on this capacity. And so it really, our thesis comes from the world around us. I saw earlier in this session in the comments, everybody talking about places where they learn something materially important.

There’s Girl Scouts, there’s working on the farm, there was in some instances, you know, people having to be the primary caregiver for their siblings, right? Yeah. Every single one of those has shaped who they are. And what we noticed as an organization at Big Thought early on was that, you know, art for Art’s sake didn’t tell the full story.

It’s a beautiful modem. But the creativity that gets built in the art, in the creative spaces, given that Big Thought literally started out only and exclusively as an art space organization, we noticed even back then and that the skills that young people built in theater, in dance, in having to go through a process of creating a work, those are all transferable skills that showed up in other different places and spaces.

And because we were leaving that to the ether, because historically the ecosystems have not acknowledged those elements, then we know that we were missing. Calling out the full value. And if we did not recognize the full value, then you can’t apply it toward a person’s explicit learning journey and make sure that we have quality rigor and everything else attached to it.

So what we wanted to do was elevate this to a platform to say, the out-of-school time sector, it’s what you’ve known it for, but also here’s where it fits in helping build skill sets, intentionally building those skill sets over the long arc of a young person’s journey for the future of work, especially in the 21st century where consistently more and more companies the entire enterprise and ecosystems are saying the things that we need most are those things that we now call creator skills, durable skills, 21st-century skills.

Tom Vander Ark: I want you to say more about that, Byron. I’ve just been so struck recently that

powerful experiences often involve human expression. And that, that is frequently in, in performing arts, either individually or often collectively. And that’s an important part of your creator archetype at Big Thought. Right. And I know Chris and all stars also value expression and art as important developmental activities.

And that’s been a big part of a big thought. Yes. So I appreciate that. I think it’s more important than ever. Right. And yeah, it’s part of why out-of-school is so important. It because it’s the shortcut to developing what I think the new priorities are of agency, identity, motivation, purpose, right.

Byron Sanders: Well, it’s why our forward was written by the Chief Innovation Officer for the US Department of Labor. A lot of people might not know that but it’s, this is not something that’s fluffy to that point. I mean, it is fluffy, but it’s fluffy and important. It’s like a really, a fluffy bulldog or something.

So the point is what to, to what you just said Tom, we have a bit of a responsibility to buck a bit of the trend on STEM only, or when the chips are down, only focus on math and science because it kind of goes against the emerging evidence that it’s less about a distinct technical skill and more about a specific.

Frame of mind and lens of looking at the world that equips you for the world today. I’ll end on this Last statistic, 2019 and 2020 across every single ecosystem across every single industry LinkedIn did a study and it showed that the number one most desired workforce skill, including accounting, including engineering, was creativity.

It was creativity. You know, the industry’s been screaming this at us but I think it’s time that we really do pay attention.

Tom Vander Ark: Chris, let me let you pile on there. ‘Cause I didn’t know that about all stars, but in reading the book and your contributions, you all stars really do value creative expression, right.

Christopher Street: Absolutely. And I usually just give my proxy to Byron ’cause I love how he represents. But All Stars Project is in a strategic partnership with Big Thought, and we’re learning a lot from each other. But yes, we were founded in 1981 by educators and psychologists, but also theater artists and performers.

And when we talk about culture change, we talk about bringing young people into the mainstream. Tom, you talk about agency, you know, how do we create agency or flexibility or critical thinking? And we have found that performance on stage. So dancing, acting, hip hop, we’re about to produce here in Dallas, hip Hop cabaret, which is gonna bring together the traditions of European cabaret and hip hop and take people to places they’ve never been before.

So we’re doing onstage performance, but we’re also taking performance off stage. So when young people walk into a hunt, consolidated, or a JP Morgan, there is a performance going on. There is a costume, there is a way of talking, and guess what? You can learn it, but you have to be taught it. It’s not natural.

And so performance allows you to be unnatural, to get out of your comfort zone. And as we say very specifically to our young people, you can both be who you are. You can be authentic, and you can be who you’re not. You can try on a different performance, and whether that’s talking about accounting or whether that’s learning about advertising or at DEF Gen record records, learning about the music industry.

So again, performance on stage and off is so powerful for our young people.

Performance and Personal Growth

Tom Vander Ark: I wanna ask Rambeau if this is the case, but I mentioned a couple of people every day at ASU-GSV that I’m just in love with the learning curve that comes with performing arts. That when you get this invitation to a spoken word event, and you know you’re gonna be on stage in, in a couple of weeks, right?

Or in a month, and you go, oh, wow. There’s no way that it could possibly do that. And then you feel, you watch yourself go up this curve, and then a few weeks later you’re on stage exhibiting a level of mastery, expressing yourself in this powerful way. And maybe you’re doing it in a group, maybe it’s a chorus or maybe it’s a it’s theater.

And so it’s a, it’s this collective expression that’s better than you could have hoped for that experiencing that. Success curve in public expression is just so powerful. I dunno, Rambeau, do you get that sense when you participated in the big thought events,

Joshua Rambeau: I can wholeheartedly agree and identify with everything that’s been shared thus far is what within the realm of just speaking on creativity I feel like big thought, very much set the stage for me and I mean, at this point, several generations of youth to learn how to express themselves in a, let’s just say a constructive way.

And in the midst of that process, I feel like an identity of each individual was formed. And for me, in my experience and then of course like I, I feel like from performances that have been done at Big Thought, different events. There, even though I’ve been doing it for a while there, there is a bit of anxiousness and nervousness only for you get to the point of that performance and it, and that can be seen what you’ve spoken as far as, wow, this is where I was within my mind, but now I’m in the process of doing so.

And there is that level of mastery that comes with the practice, whether it’s a group, whether it’s individual, but what I, I can personally identify with and agree about what’s been shared is how it spreads to all other facets of my life. From any other job that I’ve had, from working in facility maintenance for two years, or being a host or being a service.

The biggest thing that comes back is, wow, I really appreciate how well you’re able to articulate yourself for your feelings and your emotions and be authentic to yourself in a respectful, just conducive way, and that’s made all the difference no matter what I’m doing, whether it’s a fully manual labor job, I did a landscaping job just the other day, and one’s ability to think critically and be creative, like, okay, how are we gonna do this awning for this garden?

It’s not performative within the sense of standing up on stage, but the way that the mind works. And I definitely feel that my experience in big thought set the stage for that, that it starts there, but it goes to so many other places throughout life and throughout the workforce.

Definitely agree. Can, definitely,

Tom Vander Ark: can definitely. Thank you Rambeau. Yeah, totally. Thanks. Jess van talked about her consulting work around the power of the arts. Josh makes the connection to presenting in a business meeting. I Josh, you take your pod prep so seriously. I know you go up this curve to have those beautiful podcast discussions that you give Mark.

I love the idea of adding per performance, right? You’re talking about adding value, about think this is the mind of a project manager about. Finishing and delivering value to your community to this whether it’s expression or citizenship or commerce. So I love that.

Learning Ecosystems and Community Engagement

Tom Vander Ark: Bobby, the, you know, we love the education reimagined work and the really provocative way that you’ve been thinking about learning ecosystems since your origin. You didn’t restrict the idea of learning to school and you’ve always embraced the community, the ecosystem. Maybe talk about this project and why it was important to to ed, ed re at this time.

Bobbi Macdonald: Hey. Hi everyone. I wanna make that bridge from the performing arts. ‘Cause I love that we like veered so deeply into that and say you know, all of life is a stage, you know? And we actually, all of us want to be engaged and co-creating our lives and our communities together. And we wanna like, create the conditions where kids grow up, practicing that all the time together, you know, and in a way that gets them deeply connected with their own learning, with their own interests and finding how to share those meaningfully with the world, you know?

And at Education Reimagined, we have been working with schools or districts or communities or partners like Big Thought to say, well. We have learned, and many of us know a lot about that kind of deep connected learning and engagement. We all know how it feels, that’s for sure, right? We all have those memories, but what kind of system could we create?

What kind of systems do we need that really give access to that for all kids? And that’s what we’ve been working on at Education Re Imagine we have an ecosystem lab where we’re working with folks like, like Big Thought and other 11 other sites around the country to learn from them and to say, well, what kind of systems and the out-of-school time area has so much wisdom in it, because out of school time usually does have a level of following kids’ interests.

It usually is really connected to families too and what their needs are. And there’s that connection at the end of the day and talking with folks and and it’s free from a lot of the constraints.

Tom Vander Ark: Right.

Bobbi Macdonald: Schools are under. And so

Tom Vander Ark: there’s a lot that might be sorry, but it might be, ’cause it’s not compulsory, it requires as Rambeau said, it requires enrollment.

Right. And so the bar is engagement that if you want to invite kids into your space to grow and develop you have to offer engagement.

Bobbi Macdonald: Exactly. And I guess I just wanna say or just to be really clear, that one thing that we’re really working on is at the systems level. What kind of system, an ecosystem, what would that really look if we brought it to life for communities, for them to bring it to life based on their unique circumstances.

And and there’s a lot to learn from that. And so in the Built for More publication, which we were really glad to be included, we said this is about out-of-school time, but this is about us. Like, how do we wanna raise our children together? What are communities working on and what can we learn with them?

Tom Vander Ark: In addition to Dallas, are there any out-of-school players in the other ecosystems that you’re working with that you want to give a shout out to?

Bobbi Macdonald: Yeah. Wow, you put me on the spot and I can’t remember like my middle name right now, but Hold on a second. Let me think.

Well, well,

Tom Vander Ark: I was Bobby, I was thinking of our friends at One Stone. It, you know, it’s interesting, it might be the most interesting high school in America, but guess what? It spent 10 years as the world’s best after-school program. And that’s what caused the Albertson Foundation to invite them to create a school.

But their roots are solidly in enrolling young people in community-changing experiences. So I mean, that’s another example.

Bobbi Macdonald: So, yeah, we have Fab Newport and Rhode Island people should check out. It’s just really amazing. Started small and just keeps weaving together and connecting the community, connecting partners.

And then the Past Foundation in Ohio is an ecosystem that’s beautiful. But we, I just wanna say in the lab that we’re learning from right now is also has a micro-school or a district with 12,000 kids, or, you know, high school ecosystems can grow from many different entry points. And a lot of times it is the out-of-school time space that’s helping us see new possibilities.

Tom Vander Ark: Chris you’ve been at this for a long time. You’ve made such an enormous national contribution to this out-of-school space. What does this project mean to you? And I’m sure it gave you a chance to look back over the last 25 years and just try to express some of your lessons learned.

Share a couple of those with us.

Christopher Street: Sure. And it was an amazing opportunity. I wanna thank Byron Sanders for putting the project together and my co-author, Gabrielle Kurlander, who was the founding CEO of All Stars and is a theater performer and director and is directing the show. But it was a wonderful moment to just look back over base building work in outside of school.

And so 25 years ago there was not a lot of air time for, it continues to this day that we probably spend 95% of our time talking about education, but kids spend 75% of their time outside of school. And so we need to balance that. And I think from a financial perspective, we’ve been privately funded.

So we have not been government-funded. We didn’t want the constraints initially. Our founders, Dr. Lenore Ani and Dr. Fred Newman were innovators in the alternative education movements and psychology movements and basically said, what do our young people need to grow? We started with the talent show, literally a free program that young people came to enrollment to go to Rambeau’s, beautiful words and his performance, every kid made it.

This was not talent. This was a community coming together. And then we began to ask the young people, and we had amazing innovators Pamela Lewis. Helped to create that talent show model 30 years ago in New York City with the rise of hip hop. And then we asked young people, well, now what? And they said, we want jobs, we want exposure to, as they put it Now in Dallas, millionaires and billionaires, we want to meet people different than us.

I was meeting with the foundation leader yesterday and he was saying, Hey, my dad only had an eighth-grade education. There were things he couldn’t teach me. So what we began to construct was an ecosystem where youth and adults came together to do conjoint activity where they both developed. So I think a lot of the challenge, and I think the work that Bobby and her team are doing is amazing, and it is a little bit like trying to turn an ocean liner.

You know, Tom, and you’ve been at it a long time, the education system. Well, how do we retool this nationwide system outside of school Time started with a completely different mandate. And so as we moved into partnership with the corporate community. That opened up that these business people multiracial, many of them white though, many of them conservatives, wanted to invest directly in our young people.

And guess what, we were at a conference with the mayor of Dallas last week where we relaunched the summer Youth employment program with Mayor Johnson and Hunter Hunt, who’s the chairman and CEO of Hunt, consolidated energy. He said, this will change you. This isn’t just about changing young people’s lives.

So I think the issue that we’re trying to tap into nationwide, and we are in New York and Newark and Chicago and Dallas and the Bay Area, is how do we build those communities outside of school to do one very important thing, which I’ll throw in here in addition to your deeper learning, Tom, is development.

There is an act, there is this human process, how children learn language, et cetera, that is different than learning. They are interconnected and both are critical. We are not investing enough in developmental experiences outside of school. And that’s really what, and now Big Thought and others are kind of pulling together, we’ve gotta break down those silos.

We continue to compete too much with each other. And so I’m trying to pound that drum in every way I can. And Byron’s been an amazing thought partner in that. Yeah.

The Importance of Out-of-School Development

Byron Sanders: And I just want to double down on Chris’s point, and it connects back to something that Bobby was saying about earlier, you know, too often, like we said people have thought about out-of-school time as the icing on the cake when it’s really actually part of the cake itself.

As you can tell, I speak in metaphors. So what I think. Is important. And one of the, I think, highest aspirations out of this book is that we can get policy aligned with being able to formally recognize this space. These should be credit-bearing experiences, things that a person is able to do outside of the classroom play, but.

Play with a purpose, right? In, in discovery, but discovery with a purpose. And it is entirely possible to map these experiences to even core content and curriculum. It is entirely possible to ensure that if you are building as your school system a portrait of a learner, we’re able to build these experiences and map them back into these with a structured framework, with an adult as an adviser, an adult as a facilitator, that can be school.

And we’re saying it is out-of-school time. But I think to borrow from the words of my esteemed colleague, Greg McPherson, you know, the most beautiful idea is if we can unblur well ex actually, if we could just eviscerate the line between what we are saying with formal school and then informal school.

Because the entire circle of it matters deeply to a young person’s learning journey.

Tom Vander Ark: Thank you, Byron.

Entrepreneurship: The Job of the Future

Tom Vander Ark: As Warren, I want to talk about entrepreneurship. Charles Fidel and his book last Year, Education for the Age of AI, said a couple of times, entrepreneurship is the job of the future.

And by that, I think he’s referring to finding a problem worth solving toward opportunity recognition, designing solutions, and delivering value to a community.

So we’re not just talking about commerce here, it could be social enterprise, but it’s finding work worth doing, designing a solution, and then experiencing value creation for your community. I think this is a super important set of experiences that every kid deserves. Every year or two, at least while they’re in high school.

It’s really hard for high schools to host. It doesn’t fit anywhere in the master schedule. As educators, we don’t know much about this. We’re used to giving small problems with right answers, and entrepreneurship is big problems with without known answers. I love the way built for more highlights some entrepreneurial experiences that happen out-of-school.

Byron, I, this has been important to Big Thought even created this creator archetype or around this act of expression and value construction for your community. But say a little more about entrepreneurship and out-of-school.

Byron Sanders: Yeah, there was a really interesting sidebar that we had up here a little further.

In the thread. Go find it when you get a chance. Might’ve been between me and Mark or so. But yeah, it says, creativity of expression is not always the same as making creative things happen. I think the skills of getting things done is the most important, which is really

mark White mark, I appreciate you elevating that because I just to, to put a pin on the point that Tom was raising, I was making a presentation to a group of I believe it was YPO which is Young Presidents organization.

Basically it’s a group of these really successful entrepreneurs. I think your net worth has to be like, you know, 13 million and above or something like that. So you’re doing pretty good. And I asked everybody in the room, who in here thinks they’re creative? And two guys, I think maybe three people raised their hand.

And I was like, okay, why? And then one guy was like, you know. I’m in a band. Then there’s another guy who’s like, I’m a photographer. Then there’s another person who says and then I paused and I said, all right, so, so let me get this right. I’m talking to a room of about 50 or so people who literally created.

A company that solved a specific problem in a material way that the market had not yet seen. And none of y’all think you’re creative. Three people thought they were creative. So the reason why this entrepreneurial, explicit entrepreneurial, gotta call it out thing is really important is because the people who absolutely, we have many entrepreneurs in waiting who have not self-identified as having the capacity to be an entrepreneur because we haven’t framed the skill sets that are the base elements of entrepreneurship so that people can then be able to say, oh wow, that applies to me.

That’s one of the reasons why this creator archetype is so critically important and other frameworks like it because people need to understand that you weren’t born a police officer or a teacher, or a, whatever it is I’m doing in my life right now, right? Like you, you weren’t born those things, but you are.

And can build a best set, a base set of skills that absolutely can be applied toward these.

Building Skills Through Real-World Experiences

Byron Sanders: And I’ll double down on why the entrepreneurship part is so important. Because in the world and the economy as we’re talking about, it used to be that people would go and work maybe two, maybe three jobs and then retire, right?

The average number of jobs from a millennial and a Gen Z is about 16. Before the end of their working years 16. And the other thing that is materially important is as the world changes so rapidly around us, even including policy changes. So let’s talk about, you know, even with, let’s let put your politics aside.

Let’s say if tariffs are driving production and producing back to the United States in some way, form or fashion, then guess what? All of the jobs that we’ve been looking at over the last 30, 40, 50 years, there’s gonna be some new jobs that we are going to have to be prepared for new solutions that people are gonna have to go out and create.

And if we don’t have an entire workforce built with the capacity of creating and then bringing things from inception to completion and building those skills in non-traditional learning spaces of learning by doing, then it’s not just a matter of individuals not being able to earn, we are not going to have a successful society in the United States of America.

It’s critically important.

Tom Vander Ark: And Byron, I’ll just pile on by saying. You talked about the number of careers accelerating. It’s also gonna be stepping into employment and entrepreneurship and employment and going back and forth from being an employer to being an employee. And sometimes at the same time ’cause young people are gonna have a portfolio career where they’re contributing in in different ways, at different times.

Chris, can you describe how and where entrepreneurship, or at least problem finding and problem solving show up in all stars? Sure. You know, and

Christopher Street: for, in our model, we don’t necessarily call it entrepreneurship, but we do teach people how to build things and how to create things. So at the talent shows I mentioned.

The kids are on stage, but they’re also selling tickets and they’re stage managing, they’re learning lighting and design from volunteers. So they own the whole process In the development school for youth, which is our introduction to the corporate community, young people volunteer every week. They’re calling their peers.

They’re recruiting the next class of young people. Yes. So I think it is imbuing now let’s go agency, let’s go purpose and belong. And kind of, but it has to be activity centric. We did I think some important work along the lines of the creator archetype with Southern Methodist University Center on Research and Evaluation.

And we created an outline of what we call eight dimensions of development. So we wanted to be able to measure non-academic outcomes, which we take to be critical for outside of school time. And you’ll recognize some of these dimensions that are open. Worldview improvisation, confidence, interpersonal competence, vocational competence, sort of looking at these different pieces of.

What are now being called durable skills. Byron talked about them. They’re not just the icing, they’re the cake. And so we’ve been able to rigorously apply these frameworks, and again, with big thought using their creator archetype to show progress. I. That basically you can see young people gain in confidence in communication, capability in ensemble building.

And when we talk about, you know, you all talked a lot about ai, we started our chapter with a slightly provocative title, which is non artificial intelligence. ’cause there’s all this other stuff that our young people need. Like they need to learn how to go up into an elevator, into an office building. They need to learn how to navigate public transport to get to a job on time.

And so again, we have to do both. That’s not an anti AI thing, but saying let’s not skip over these developmental processes. And in fact, we can imbue all outside of school time programs with these features, they’ll look different. So again, we’re not looking to, you know, make monolithic the industry, but we are uplifting it.

And some of it’s credentialing that Byron was speaking to. But some of it is also just recognizing that young people like when I was in high school, my dad worked at IBM and he’s like, Hey, make a proposal to a manager about comparing the PC and the Mac. And I did, I was probably 14 years old and this guy met with me, this manager at IBM, and he took my proposal.

Seriously. I don’t think anything happened off of it, but I had this whole experience of confidence building and agency and voice. And so again I would just underscore we have this unique opportunity with outside of school time as a companion piece to ed reform where young people can grow and transform and in I will underline, learn how to learn.

So we talk a lot about, well, we’re just gonna teach ’em the next thing, or we’re just gonna, you know, teach ’em how to use ai and then we’re gonna teach ’em how, you know, Byron said those 16 things. So our focus is, well, we’re gonna teach you how to learn, not just the skill. Because if you learn how to learn, yeah, you are gonna be fine.

Tom Vander Ark: It’s I guess Charles Fidel calls it the meta learning. It’s being meta about watching yourself go up that learning curve and understanding how you do that so that learning sprints become repeatable. Diane Laufenberg talks about some farm learning. I and big shout out to FFA, which is a great supporter of after-school entrepreneurship often in rural communities.

Diana, a couple times you’ve referred to rich learning experiences. You want to say more about that and why out-of-school is such an important place for fostering rich and powerful experiences?

Diana Laufenberg: I grew up in this world of farming that I hated, by the way, like I was the D minus farmer. No one would pick me for their farm team. And so, but reflecting on it as a teacher and as somebody who, you know, sees themselves as a perpetual learner, my capacity to be a functional adult is completely based in those experiences I had outside of school.

I mean my, I had a conversation with my mom one day and she’s like, you kids did what you were told. And I went, difference, mom, we accomplished the goal. You set us out to accomplish. Like there was no coming back in the house without X thing done. You didn’t tell us how to get part one. Then part two, then you said, go get this thing done.

And then my 10 and 11-year-old, my sister and I are out there figuring it out because that’s, that was the job and it was such a. When you look back at just over time, kids have less and less uncontrolled time. They have more and more controlled time. Adults are more in charge of how kids spend their time.

And I’ve just spent a lot of time reflecting on we gotta give kids real things to do with real stakes, with real outcomes, with some real juice in the game to produce something real and not something, you know, conjured or you know, generated out of the teacher mind, but just something as close or as real as possible that feels like.

They’re not just gonna live in some world someday, but they’re in the world today doing real impossible things with Yes. Outcomes and stakes and, you know, and all of these ways that we can help enrich that time for kids and not just sit ’em down in a chair and tell ’em to read and do math better. And so, yeah. So I think about that a lot.

Tom Vander Ark: Thank you. Diane.

Personalized Learning Pathways

Tom Vander Ark: I, Amy Anderson you have this interesting initiative called Reschool Colorado, where you’re.

Yeah, you’re trying to help families stitch together pathways and you, I think, uniquely blend what we think of as school and out-of-school into personalized pathways. So I’m just curious how you are reacting to this dialogue.

Amy Anderson: I’m loving this dialogue. This is my kind of dialogue. I’m so happy to be here and listening to all of you today.

You know, much like I’m hearing from each of you, like all of the experiences I had outside of school really shaped who I became as a person too. And, you know, we work with families most directly and we, the whole focus on out-of-school time came from shadowing families back in the early days of Reschool where we saw a kid go through their day and understood that they were, you know, 75, 80% of their day outside of school with their family and their community.

Doing a variety of different things and only 20% of their day or so in school and that world that sat outside of school was just not as equally accessible for the kids that we were working with. And so this idea that Bobby talks about around systems, like the learning part of it’s crucial. And that’s, I think what a lot of this conversation has focused on is, you know, kids need access to these rich learning experiences that build upon their cultural identities, that expose them to new opportunities and passions and interests.

But we also need to have a system that supports that and that means that we need to finance it and we need to ensure that there’s support for families if they need access to information or navigational supports and those kind of things. And so a lot of the work. We do is obviously helping. We give families money.

We give learning dollars that we’ve raised philanthropically to parents and kids that they can direct at to towards learning experiences of their choosing. And we’ve tried hard to get systems at a state and local level to pass public policies that would mirror and mimic these learning dollars that we’ve done philanthropically.

And so a lot of our time is spent not just on the learning, which is important, but also how do we stand this up in a way that ensures equity and access.

Tom Vander Ark: Hey Virgil is here from Aurora Institute and you’re really the leading advocate for competency systems can updated outcome frameworks and competency systems stitch together in and out of school in a more productive

Virgel Hammonds: Hey Tom. Hey team. Thanks for this inspiring conversation. For sure. Like the competencies. Come to life as a result of these out-of-school learning experiences, right? Like there’s so much richness and robustness that exists in our communities. This is why we refer to the transition of school systems to learning communities.

It’s because of these enriching great opportunities that extend beyond school walls, right? It’s an opportunity for young people to make meaning and sense of what they’re learning in school and how it’s relevant to their context, right? And what’s around them. So that’s my long-winded answer of saying yes, Tom.

Absolutely.

Tom Vander Ark: I love that.

Closing Thoughts and Future Directions

Tom Vander Ark: And Bobby a chance for closing thoughts on ecosystems that embrace and include out-of-school time.

Bobbi Macdonald: Yeah, thank you. I think, you know, when we think about everything that’s been said here, kind of at the heart of it is the learner, like having a unique learning journey, actually being able to pursue some interest to, to work in local places to try internships, to expand their learning out into the community, but to be seen as unique.

And it’s hard to have a system that can hold all of that uniqueness. And so I think the places that we’re talking to here and the people that are doing this pioneering work are helping us see what kind of system it needs to be. And one of the things that we find in our work at Education Reimagined is that it is a real commitment to co-creation.

You know, you see a lot of people creating like a portrait of a learner or some way to

put

people around the table and say. What’s our shared vision? So there’s that process of shared vision, but it’s the same that you want for the kids. Each kid is seen as unique. Each community is unique and they have a story to tell.

And so it it’s amazing to see how these systems are emerging and people are finding those insights and sharing them and credentialing, learning and recognizing that the creative and developmental learning is so important. How do we capture that? That’s part of that, again, co-creation of the kind of.

Tom Vander Ark: Just a word of thanks for Education Reimagined’s advocacy for ecosystems, particularly out-of-school systems. And it’s been provocative and tough. It took real courage to advocate that out-of-school learning should be valued. It should be funded. The folks inside the system aren’t always friendly to that idea.

And so we really appreciate your brave and bold leadership. Thanks to you. And thanks to Emily Leapt tag who’s on today. Chris closing thoughts on out-of-school, lessons learned. Maybe a word of advice for folks that are joining.

Christopher Street: Yes. So try to say something slightly provocative, which is I do not believe that you can do workforce development in the classroom.

So there is a huge amount of money being given out right now, and everyone’s trying to get it for what they do. And what we’re finding is unless we bring young people out of the classroom, off the campus into direct experiences in the corporate community with caring partners, they will not actually be able to grow and develop in the ways that we want them to.

So we’re saying that as a friend of schools not as a as against schools. The second piece is the corporate and business community are not doing enough yet. And so we are working with the group of CEOs around the country to create a clearer and crisper message that the corporate community needs to provide more opportunities for.

Our young people need to be seen as partners in their growth and development and move beyond their short-term thinking to sort of long-term investment in our total workforce ecosystem. And then lastly, is. Let’s stop competing. Let’s stop fighting over dollars. Let’s figure out how to use our collective strength.

So Big Thought and All Stars are doing a set of initiatives, including working with Christo Ray schools and documenting new kinds of models to strengthen their workforce development. And so there’s a lot of good collaboration happening around the country. We need to uplift it more as nonprofit leaders and educators.

Tom Vander Ark: And Byron you’re running for school board in Dallas ’cause you’re trying to make the case for community communities of learning.

Byron Sanders: You lost your audio. Lost it. Yeah. Oh, wait one second. Can you hear me now? Yeah. Okay. So. I am running for school board. You know, I turned the pass, the baton to an amazing leader, a big thought a few months back. Her name is Erin Alford. We had a two year succession strategy. She was chief of staff there, and she and Greg and are continuing and the whole team are continuing this amazing work.

And Yes. One of the most, one of the main reasons why I’m running for school board now is to create the kind of policy environment that allows us to not just, you know, the idea is not just fund after school Sure. But more importantly, bring the things that we were working on so hard Yeah. Into being formally recognized and embraced in a policy landscape.

It’s not just about dollars, it’s about everything that Bobby said. It’s about being able to recognize microcredentials, bringing in those same elements, maybe the portrait of a learner, and making that part the, what we have here, which is a teacher evaluation system. Because if you don’t measure it, if you don’t make it central to our, you know, the way we’re holding ourselves as a school district accountable, then it’s all the stuff that’s gonna disappear whenever the, you know, chips are down and whenever, you know, things get tough or resources get tight, we have to make this.

Part of the cake, like we said, and that’s why I’m running for school board. And quite frankly, to your point that you brought up earlier, Tom, we’re talking about the future of work, but if we’re really taking a bigger step back, these skills are just important for life. If you don’t have the capacity to build relationships with human beings, then no, you’re not gonna be able to lead this project at work.

You’re not gonna be able to work with clients and customers, but you’re also not gonna be able to be a good father. You’re not gonna be able to be a good member at your mosque. You’re not gonna be able to be the kind of contributor to society that you need. It’s all interconnected. And if we want a better society where everything isn’t burning all around us, then I think it’s probably time that we start to infuse this into our systems.

Tom Vander Ark: It’s time by and Bobby, Chris, and Rambeau. Thank you for making the day better. Thanks for this book Built For More: The Role of Out-of-School Time in Preparing Youth for a Future of Work. Mason, take us out.

Mason Pashia: Yeah, echo Tom. Thank you everyone for joining us. Thank you everyone for presenting with us.

We have a couple of town hall announcements that’ll be out soon. We got a couple in May, I think, actually. So stay on the lookout and more from us, but keep up all the amazing work, more information next week. And reach out to [email protected] if you have any questions or wanna share a story on the site.

Thanks all. Really appreciate you. Bye Joe. Have a happy weekend.

Christopher Street: Getting smart. Awesome, Bobby. Great to meet you, Byron. Take care. Yeah, Rambeau well done sir. Thanks again.

Joshua Rambeau: Pleasure. Thank you guys so much. You bet.

---

Guest Bio

Christopher Street

Chris Street is a change maker with a talent for unifying diverse individuals around transformative causes. His involvement with the All Stars Project began as a volunteer in 1992, and he has dedicated over 30 years to building ASP from a small, local, community-based nonprofit into a national organization operating in six cities and serving youth in over 20 states through in-person and virtual programs.

Chris assumed the role of CEO in November 2023 and continues to serve as president, just two of several leadership roles he has played over the last 23 years. A leading social entrepreneur who provides strategic direction to the organization’s operations nationwide, he works closely with national and regional board members on advancing ASP’s impact and oversees the planning and execution of all programming, operations and community building activities. In addition to leading the design of strategic initiatives, Chris has engaged with elected officials and government leaders in New York City, Chicago, Dallas and Newark to create public–private partnerships and launch new initiatives, such as Operation Conversation: Cops & Kids, with Mayor Ras Baraka’s administration in New Jersey. More recently, he has led discussions with education institutions like Dallas College and ICA Cristo Rey Academy in San Francisco about creating new kinds of workforce development solutions for their student bodies, bringing the performatory developmental approach into engagements with institutions focused on learning.

As the national Director of Development from 1999–2019, he tripled annual income, established an endowment and financial reserves and led the raising of over $125 million from individual and institutional funders. These donations were used for ASP’s ground-breaking youth and community development programs, including award-winning workforce development, performance initiatives and police–community relations work. He created a strategic partnership with the Aspen Leadership Group that has enhanced philanthropic partnership work, resulting in a series of $1–5 million investments in the organization by philanthropists from coast to coast. ASP expansion campaigns have culminated in the opening of the performing arts and development center on West 42nd Street in New York City in 2003; a campaign to open the Scott Flamm Center for Afterschool Development in downtown Newark, where Chris served as Director from 2013–2016; the regional expansion of ASP to Chicago in 2007 and establishment of the Hub for Afterschool Development in 2023; and expansion to the San Francisco Bay Area in 2008 and Dallas in 2013. The ASP’s diverse national fundraising department has created a gold standard training program in philanthropic partnership building, which has been featured in <em>The Chronicle of Philanthropy</em>.

After graduating from New Canaan High School in Connecticut and the London School of Economics in 1992, Chris dedicated his life to public service and community organizing initiatives that focus on advancing equality of opportunity, diverse civic leadership and social entrepreneurship. In 2022, he graduated from the Integral Leadership Program of the Stagen Leadership Academy in Dallas. He currently resides in Dallas and travels regularly to each ASP market.

Byron Sanders

Byron Sanders is a committed advocate for education, economic development, and creating equitable communities throughout Dallas, Texas. As the president and CEO of Big Thought, he works each day to explore innovative ways to narrow the opportunity gap for children. Byron has received myriad awards for his involvement in the community. He has been recognized as a Dallas Convention and Visitors Bureau BIG Influencer, in Who’s Who in Black Dallas, Dallas Foundation Good Works Under 40, Innovator in Education from the Alcuin School and as a TEDx speaker. In 2017, he was named a Presidential Leadership Scholar by the program led by the presidential centers of George W. Bush, William J. Clinton, George H.W. Bush, and Lyndon B. Johnson. In 2018 he received Parkland Foundation’s Community First award.

Byron’s professional expertise spans the fields of banking, education, philanthropy, and entrepreneurship. Prior to joining Big Thought, Byron also served as vice president for U.S. Trust, the private bank of Bank of America, executive director of the Dallas Education Foundation, and vice president of Group Excellence, a mentoring and tutoring organization serving at-risk K-12 public school students. Byron serves as a board member with Social Venture Partners Dallas, CitySquare, ChildCareGroup, Dallas Symphony Orchestra, Trinity Park Conservancy, the Mayor’s Star Council and on the United Way’s Community Impact Council. He is a member of Dallas Assembly, Leadership Dallas ’13, Leadership ISD ‘12, Latino Center for Leadership Development Fellows, and several other service engagements. A graduate of the University of Tulsa with a BSBA in marketing, his first love is spending time with his wife and two young children.

Bobbi Macdonald

Dr. Bobbi Macdonald is one of the 28 original signatories on Education Reimagined’s founding document, “A Transformational Vision for Education in the U.S.” Her previous work as Executive Director of City Neighbors Foundation sought to provide an answer to the question, “What would it take for every student to be Known, Loved, and Inspired?” That question remains at the heart of her work today. Bobbi most recently completed her Doctorate in Educational Leadership from Harvard University.

Links:

• Built for More
• Dallas Works Press Conference
• Dallas Morning News coverage
• Hunter Hunt Remarks at Dallas Works Press Conference