Dennis “Doc” Littky on Expanding The Vision: College Unbound

In this episode of the Getting Smart Podcast, Tom Vander Ark sits down with Dennis “Doc” Littky, an educational innovator whose work with Big Picture Learning and College Unbound is reshaping the landscape of personalized and experiential education. From the inception of Big Picture Learning, which challenges conventional schooling with its “leaving to learn” model, to the founding of College Unbound, a transformative institution serving adult learners, Littky shares his journey and insights. He discusses the importance of making education relevant and personalized, with each student following their unique path. Tune in to discover how Littky’s visionary approach is influencing schools worldwide and paving new pathways for students of all ages.

Outline

• (00:00) The Beginnings of Big Picture Learning
• (00:59) A Conversation with Dennis Littky
• (04:58) Innovative Education Models
• (17:08) Expanding the Vision: College Unbound
• (27:01) Reflections and Future Plans

The Beginnings of Big Picture Learning

Tom Vander Ark: Twenty-five years ago, I stumbled into the Shepard Building in Providence, Rhode Island. It was the home of the Rhode Island Department of Education, where Peter McWalters was in his seventh year as commissioner. Peter had allowed a couple of education innovators, Dennis Littky and his co-founder, Elliott Washer, to set up shop on the first floor with a new school called Big Picture Learning.

It completely blew my mind. It was so far outside the bounds of what I thought school could be that I declared it then and there the coolest school I’d ever seen. It remains a super important innovation, and in some respects, it’s back in vogue.

A Conversation with Dennis Littky

Tom Vander Ark: This is the Getting Smart Podcast, and I’m Tom Vander Ark. Today, we’re talking to Dennis Littky, the co-founder of Big Picture Learning and also a college president. Doc, it’s good to see you. I even put on a suit because I knew I’d be talking to a college president.

Dennis “Doc” Littky: Yeah, no, I’m glad you got dressed up. I’m stepping away from education for a bit—moving to Costa Rica this Tuesday for at least six months. I’ve got my Costa Rican shirt on, so I consider this dressing up for you, Tom.

Tom Vander Ark: You were already famous by the time I met you because you were a bit of a rabble-rouser principal in New Hampshire. But you didn’t wear that kind of stuff in New Hampshire, did you?

Dennis “Doc” Littky: I wore flannel shirts.

Tom Vander Ark: That makes sense for New Hampshire. When did you catch the color vibe? Because I think when we met in ’99, you were all about the colors.

Dennis “Doc” Littky: Yeah, I don’t know. It’s an interesting thing. I have 110 pairs of sneakers, all different colors. About 10 years ago, I had a girlfriend who said my shoes were pretty boring.

Tom Vander Ark: What do you have on today? What color?

Dennis “Doc” Littky: I’ve got my LeBron’s on. I’ll show you—ah, here’s one.

Tom Vander Ark: Wow.

Dennis “Doc” Littky: But here’s the cool part—they’re mismatched. That’s how they come, man.

Tom Vander Ark: Do you remember the day I met you in ’99? I think Tony Wagner brought me there. He said, “Oh, there’s this guy you’ve got to meet called Doc Littky.” You’d caught his attention because of your leadership at Thayer. I should mention to people that I think Thayer was the first school in the Coalition of Essential Schools.

Dennis “Doc” Littky: Yes. Us and Debbie Meier’s Central Park East. We were the first two schools with Ted Sizer. At one point, I got into all kinds of trouble at Thayer. They tried to fire me everywhere. A board member even stood up and said, “Brown University is a communist organization, so I vote to take Thayer out of the Coalition of Essential Schools.”

Now, it didn’t change anything—I kept doing what I was doing—but that was the kind of attitude there.

Tom Vander Ark: So, did you and Debbie help Ted build those 10 principles?

Dennis “Doc” Littky: Yeah, we were there at the beginning. Ted had the ideas—he wrote Horace’s Compromise—but Debbie and I were doing the actual work. We had something to show.

Tom Vander Ark: I think of that as the origin of what some now call deeper learning—Ted’s focus on inviting young people into experiences that help them use their minds.

Dennis “Doc” Littky: Exactly. And you know what’s sad? When I give talks today, I always ask, “Who knows Ted Sizer?” For those watching this, he was the high school guru of the 1990s. At 35 years old, he was the dean of Harvard’s Ed School and the head of Phillips Andover—or one of those schools. But no one knows his name now. Still, you’re right—he set the stage for deeper learning and personalized learning. We took it to the next level with Big Picture Learning.

Tom Vander Ark: I remember that same fall when I visited you, I also visited Ted at Francis Parker in Boston. It was awe-inspiring. I had never seen young people so engaged and agentic, so fully owning their learning. The teachers were so committed to creating that kind of environment.

Dennis “Doc” Littky: Exactly.

Innovative Education Models

Tom Vander Ark: Let’s go back to the Shepard Building. I stumbled into that place and found out that students were out on what you called “leaving to learn.” They were out in internships two days a week. It was the most radical structure I’d ever seen. Where did that idea come from? And how did you manage to set that up in Peter McWalters’ office?

Dennis “Doc” Littky: Yeah, it’s a long story. Before Big Picture, I started a school called Shoreham-Wading River Middle School back in 1972. I got to design it from scratch, and that’s where I really began experimenting with advisory and other innovative approaches.

When Elliot and I came to Brown University, where Ted was running the Annenberg Institute, Peter McWalters approached us. He said, “There’s a school on the books, and it has a bond issue. Would you design and run it?” I told him, “Only if we can do exactly what we want.” To my surprise, he said yes. So, Elliot and I had no choice but to go all in. Peter was probably the only commissioner in the country who would have allowed that.

Elliot and I asked ourselves, “If we didn’t know schools existed, what would we create?” We had the freedom to start from scratch. As a seasoned principal, I knew the system’s limitations. Surveys showed that the number one word high school students used to describe their experience was “boring.” Ten years later, it got worse: the words were “boring” and “anxious.”

So, we asked, “How do we engage students so school isn’t boring? How do we create an environment where they can go deep into their learning?” As a psychologist by training, I understood motivation theory—students need to love what they’re doing or find it meaningful.

We decided to organize students in small groups with one teacher, whom we called an advisor. The focus was on helping students discover their interests and passions. Most students had never been asked what they cared about. So, we developed processes to help them explore, including internships. It wasn’t about steering them into specific careers but engaging them in something they loved at that moment.

Some students stayed in the same internship for four years; others changed annually. Either way, the experience helped them learn more about themselves. For example, one girl said she always wanted to be a teacher. We placed her in a middle school as a teaching assistant. Three months later, she said, “I hate kids.” Thank goodness she figured that out at 14 instead of 22! She then explored computers and dancing, eventually realizing her passion was in the arts. That became her life.

Tom Vander Ark: So, internships and experiential learning seem central to the model. You’ve often described it as “one student at a time.” Is that the foundation of Big Picture Learning?

Dennis “Doc” Littky: Yes, absolutely. The difference between us and other personalized learning schools is that every student has their own curriculum. It’s truly one student at a time. What are they interested in? Behind the scenes, we ensure they’re reading, writing, and doing math. Math was the hardest because standardized tests emphasize areas that don’t align with real-world applications.

A student could be learning science by working with a doctor or through hands-on experiences with sailboats. Each student’s learning path was unique.

We also implemented exhibitions as assessments. Students couldn’t fake their way through them because their parents, mentors, and advisors were present. If a student claimed they were doing homework all night, their parents might say, “No, you weren’t.” It was about showing real learning and growth.

We emphasized rigor, relevance, and relationships. Elliot liked to define “rigor” as “vigor.” It’s not about stress or memorization. One reporter once said, “Your students aren’t stressed. I thought rigorous learning required stress.” That saddened me. Our students were deeply engaged, working late on their own projects—not because a teacher assigned it, but because it mattered to them.

Tom Vander Ark: I remember borrowing “rigor, relevance, and relationships” from you for the Gates Foundation’s first decade of work.

Dennis “Doc” Littky: Thank you. And that term “rigor” often gets misinterpreted. For us, rigor meant meaningful engagement. For example, I’d bring students to board meetings, where they’d passionately discuss projects they’d been up late working on—not because someone forced them to but because it was important to them.

We made it clear: we’re not playing school here. Everything had to be real. If a student couldn’t function in the classroom, we’d place them in an internship where they thrived. One reporter once visited a hospital where a student intern was acting very professionally. The next day, she saw the same student at school, and he nearly ran her over. She couldn’t believe it was the same person. But in a real environment, students rose to the occasion.

Tom Vander Ark: Today, Big Picture Learning has school affiliates all over the country—and the world, actually. You probably have more affiliates outside the U.S. than inside, right?

Dennis “Doc” Littky: Yeah, and that’s what’s exciting. It started with people in the Netherlands. They began bringing 20 people each year to be trained here. They went back, built their own schools, and the idea spread. Then Australia joined in. We now have schools in Mumbai, and the network keeps growing. It’s very cool.

Tom Vander Ark: Australia has more recently contributed a transcript. That’s an important innovation Big Picture is bringing back to the U.S., right?

Dennis “Doc” Littky: Yeah. That’s the exciting part—it’s not just us innovating and exporting ideas. Schools in the network are starting to talk to one another and bringing new ideas back to us. It’s reciprocal, and that’s what makes it special.

Tom Vander Ark: I want to acknowledge, Doc, that while the network itself is a major contribution, it feels like the whole world is finally catching up to the lessons you were teaching 25 years ago: that learning has to matter to the student, it has to be experiential, and internships can be some of the richest, most powerful learning experiences. Systems worldwide are now embracing these ideas, and there’s real momentum around internships and client-connected projects. That’s got to be gratifying.

Dennis “Doc” Littky: It is. I’m lucky to have lived long enough to see these ideas take root. Elliot and I said 30 years ago that when technology improves, it will enable this kind of personalized learning. Today, every kid can build their own learning portfolio, connect with mentors online, and access resources globally. AI and other technologies are finally catching up to support this model.

But at the same time, schools in general are as bad—or worse—than they were 30 years ago. That’s the sad part. The question is: what will be the tipping point to make real, systemic change? With everything going on—talk of cutting Pell Grants, the potential dissolution of the Education Department—what does it all mean? Will it force us to build stronger local systems? I don’t know, but we have to start thinking about these questions.

Tom Vander Ark: It does feel like a formative time in many ways. While we may not see federal leadership, there’s a big opening for Big Picture principles. The technology is catching up, and AI offers exciting possibilities for support, guidance, and co-authoring meaningful projects. We’re even seeing immersive environments and simulation-based learning emerge as powerful tools. For example, our producer Mason recently experienced a simulation where he became a hospice nurse. That would be tough to replicate as an internship, but simulations make it possible to engage deeply in those scenarios.

Dennis “Doc” Littky: Absolutely. Simulations can connect to real-world experiences. For instance, a student working at a vet clinic could also earn a vet assistant certificate through simulations. The technology adds another layer of opportunity.

Expanding the Vision: College Unbound

Tom Vander Ark: You’ve launched three world-changing schools and networks. Why, 15 years ago, did you decide to reinvent college?

Dennis “Doc” Littky: Everyone asks me that. Even my board at Big Picture wasn’t sure about it—except for Ron Wolk, who had founded Education Week. Two things drove the decision. First, I was frustrated. Big Picture was doing well, but people were still asking basic questions like, “What’s advisory? What’s an internship?” Second, I saw alarming data: 50% of people who start college drop out. Among poor students—regardless of race—the dropout rate was 89%. That’s not the students’ fault; it’s the college’s fault.

There are 40 million adults in the U.S. who started college but didn’t finish. Many colleges try to bring them back but put them in the same environment they left. It’s even less relevant for a 35-year-old than it was when they were 18. I thought we could create something better.

It wasn’t easy. People said, “You’ll never get accredited.” The state hadn’t approved a new school in 26 years. Even Brown University tried to oppose us, which was bizarre because we weren’t targeting the same population. But we won state approval and later national accreditation. Now we’re just like any other college—except we focus on working adults, particularly women of color. Eighty percent of our students are women of color who hadn’t been in school for 20 years. They’re incredibly smart, but life got in the way when they were younger.

We award life credit through a rigorous portfolio process, and 44% of our graduates go on to earn master’s degrees. It’s not about the degree itself—it’s about showing them they belong, helping them regain confidence, and opening new doors.

Tom Vander Ark: That’s incredible. What’s the name of the program?

Dennis “Doc” Littky: It’s called College Unbound. You can find it at collegeunbound.edu.

Tom Vander Ark: What are the core design principles that make College Unbound different?

Dennis “Doc” Littky: The good news is that it was incubated within Big Picture, so we borrowed those ideas and adapted them. The central principle is still “one student at a time.” However, since our students are working adults, internships don’t apply the same way. Instead, we flipped the model. Each student is part of a cohort, which functions like an advisory group.

Tom Vander Ark: How large are the cohorts?

Dennis “Doc” Littky: About 10 to 15 students per group. Cohorts aren’t always led by PhDs—many of our staff come from institutions like Brown or Providence College and are passionate about working with this population.

Each student must also develop a project related to their real-life work or aspirations. Courses are designed around these projects. Students meet in person for three hours once a week, usually in the evening after work. For convenience, we use spaces like medical schools or high schools that aren’t in use at night. We provide daycare and food because those are common barriers for our students. They drop off their kids, break bread with their cohort, and dive into their learning.

Unlike many colleges, our students can go full-time while working full-time. This is because the program is structured to fit their lives, enabling them to graduate in about two years. Their online courses are also project-based. For instance, if they take a sociology course, they’ll analyze it through the lens of their own projects.

We even have unique courses, like one called “Reframing Failure.” Many of our students feel they’ve failed at something in their lives. This course helps them turn those experiences into stories of resilience and pride.

We’re also in prisons, both inside and outside. Two years ago, we awarded bachelor’s degrees to incarcerated students, and when they were released, they continued their studies with us. Many programs stop supporting individuals once they leave prison, but that’s when they need help the most.

The principles remain the same: one student at a time, project-based learning, open exhibitions, and support for their real-world work.

Tom Vander Ark: That’s a remarkable model. And you’ve expanded beyond Providence, correct?

Dennis “Doc” Littky: Yes, I stepped down as president about a year and a half ago to focus on scaling the program. We now have sites in Seattle, Greenville, Philadelphia, and Chicago. We’re looking for ways to expand our influence further.

We’ll never reach all 40 million adults who didn’t finish college—just like Big Picture Schools will never serve every student. But the goal is to show people there’s a different way to do education. Our students didn’t leave during the pandemic because they were part of a tight-knit group. While other institutions lost 25% of their students, we retained nearly everyone. Our approach makes education relevant and meaningful.

Tom Vander Ark: That’s powerful. Is College Unbound affordable?

Dennis “Doc” Littky: Yes, it’s $10,000 per year. And here’s an exciting initiative: we’ve launched a program called “TA to BA.” We’re helping teacher assistants—many of whom are community moms—get bachelor’s degrees and certifications. In Providence, TAs make $27,000 a year. After earning their degree, they start at $54,000.

The same thing is happening in Philadelphia. The school district and teachers’ union partnered with us to train their own workforce. The retention rate is over 95%.

Tom Vander Ark: Do your students use Pell Grants to cover tuition?

Dennis “Doc” Littky: Yes, Pell Grants are critical. They can cover up to $7,800, leaving a small gap that we try to fill through partnerships with businesses and school districts. Our goal is for students to graduate debt-free.

Tom Vander Ark: Who’s leading College Unbound now?

Dennis “Doc” Littky: Adam Bush, who worked with me from the beginning as provost, took over as president. He’s doing a fantastic job leading the program.

Tom Vander Ark: It seems like you and Elliott have done an amazing job cultivating leadership within Big Picture as well. We’re big fans of Carlos and Andrew.

Dennis “Doc” Littky: Absolutely. Carlos and Andrew have been phenomenal. At the Met, there’s a young woman from South Providence who started as a volunteer after hearing me speak. She became a teacher, then a principal, and now she’s running the place. That’s my job—to build something that carries on while I’m in Costa Rica.

Reflections and Future Plans

Tom Vander Ark: Speaking of Costa Rica, I hear you’re moving there soon.

Dennis “Doc” Littky: Tuesday! In two days, I’ll be there for at least six months.

Tom Vander Ark: I’ll be in Costa Rica a couple of weeks later. Maybe we can visit a school or two together.

Dennis “Doc” Littky: That’d be great! I hear there’s an interesting school near my town. I’ll check it out in November or December. You’re coming at the end of November, right?

Tom Vander Ark: Yes, and there’s a micro-school right across from our Airbnb. My family knows school visits are part of our vacations!

Tom Vander Ark: It’s such a treat to catch up, Doc. Thank you for 50–55 years of pushing against the system. I know you said it doesn’t feel like things have changed much, but in many ways, it feels like there’s now a big opening. There’s so much momentum around the initiatives and ideas you’ve been advocating for years. You’ve influenced thousands of educators, and that’s made school better for millions of kids. A lot of us appreciate you, Doc.

Dennis “Doc” Littky: Thank you, Tom. I’ve had a lot of fun along the way, and I’m not done yet. People ask if I’m retiring, but I’m just moving into another arena. Who knows? Maybe I’ll start a school in Costa Rica. Watch out, Tom!

Tom Vander Ark: It could happen. I also want to acknowledge your contribution to fashion in education. I see more school administrators rocking sneakers these days.

Dennis “Doc” Littky: Beautiful.

Tom Vander Ark: You’re shaping the future, Doc.

Dennis “Doc” Littky: We hope. I’ve got 20 more years until I hit 100, so there’s still time to do more.

Tom Vander Ark: Let’s start some nursing homes together when the time comes.

Dennis “Doc” Littky: Sounds like a plan.

Tom Vander Ark: I want to add that your early work with the Gates Foundation really helped put Big Picture on the map. Your support was invaluable at a critical time. People would say, “If Gates is backing them, they must have done their homework.” Little did they know, you just walked in one day, fell in love with what you saw, and trusted your instincts. That early support gave us the credibility to grow nationally. So, thank you for that.

Dennis “Doc” Littky: Thank you, Tom. That means a lot.

Tom Vander Ark: Thank you to Dr. Dennis Littky, founder of Big Picture Learning and College Unbound, for joining us today. And thanks to our producer, Mason Pashia. Until next week, keep learning, keep leading, and keep focusing on one student at a time.

Dennis “Doc” Littky: All right, my man.

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Dennis Littky

Dennis Littky is the co-founder and co-director of The Met School, co-founder of Big Picture Learning and founder and President of College Unbound. He is nationally known for his extensive work in secondary education in urban, suburban, and rural settings, spanning over 40 years. As an educator, Dennis has a reputation for working up against the edge of convention and out of the box, turning tradition on its head and delivering concrete results. From 2000-2010 The Bill and Melinda Gates Foundation gave Big Picture Learning 20 million dollars to replicate The Met School nationally and internationally. Currently there is a network of 113 schools, 52 across the country, 40 in Australia and 21 in the Netherlands.

Presently, Dennis’s focus has been to expand the Big Picture Learning design to include a college, College Unbound, for adults, that allows them to earn a Bachelors Degree while creating a project around their interest and working full time. The innovative college is rethinking how we educate the 37 million adults who started college but didn’t finish.

Dr. Littky holds a double Ph.D. in psychology and education from the University of Michigan. His work as a principal at Thayer Junior/Senior High School in Winchester, N.H. is featured in an NBC movie, A Town Torn Apart based on the book Doc: The Story of Dennis Littky and His Fight for a Better School. In 2004, he wrote (along with Samantha Grabelle) The Big Picture: Education is Everyone’s Business, which went on to win the Association of Educational Publishers’ top award for nonfiction in 2005. In 2003, Dennis was recognized as a leader in education and awarded the Harold W. McGraw Jr. Prize in Education. Fast Company ranked Littky #4 among the top 50 Innovators of 2004, and the George Lucas Educational Foundation recently selected Dennis as part of their Daring Dozen. Locally, Dennis was awarded the Local Hero Award by Bank of America in 2008 and College Unbound was awarded The Innovative and Creative Program Award by UPCEA, New England. Most recently, Dennis was awarded the New England Higher Education Excellence Award in 2011.

Links

• Watch the full video here
• Dennis Littky Bio
• The MET High School
• Big Picture Learning