Profile of an Unbundled Learning Ecosystem: Arizona

Shownotes

In today’s rapidly evolving educational landscape, Arizona is pioneering a transformative approach through unbundled learning. This model breaks down traditional educational silos, integrating K-12, higher education, and workforce readiness to equip students with the skills necessary for the 21st century. By leveraging partnerships with local businesses and educational institutions, initiatives like those led by ASU Prep and the Greater Phoenix Chamber are providing students with real-world learning experiences that extend beyond the classroom. These efforts not only enhance students’ academic understanding but also prepare them for future career opportunities, ensuring they are both college and career ready. As Arizona continues to innovate, it serves as a model for other states aiming to reform educational pathways to meet the diverse needs of all learners.

Outline

(00:00) Introduction to Unbundled Learning Series
(00:56) Levels of Education Unbundling
(03:28) Guest Introductions and Personal Experiences
(10:10) Challenges and Solutions in Arizona’s Education System
(21:39) Policy Barriers and Innovations
(33:00) Future Directions and Closing Remarks

Introduction to Unbundled Learning Series

Nate McClennen: Hello, you’re listening to the Getting Smart Podcast, and I am Nate McClennen. Today we’re diving into the second part of our three-part series on unbundled learning. So for those of you who are avid listeners, we talked to a bunch of folks from Colorado with the Reschool Colorado, Jeffco Open School, and Colorado Succeeds, thinking about how to meet workforce needs and expand learning opportunities beyond the school walls in Colorado.

If you haven’t yet listened to that podcast, please start with that podcast. Then come to today’s pod, which is on Arizona. And we’ll think about unbundling in Arizona. We have some great guests today. And then the third part of the series will be the last one around New Hampshire. We’ll move east to New Hampshire, which has done some great work since 2005 in opening up extended and expanded learning opportunities for young people.

Levels of Education Unbundling

Nate McClennen: So before we start into our conversation, I wanted to just step back. And look at the different levels of education unbundling. And we’ve written about this in our white paper and you can find that online, but really thinking about the different parts or different ways someone can unbundle. And in a typical classroom, a teacher is always unbundling unless they’re in a very prescriptive school where curriculum is mandated and the exact time and way that you need to teach it is mandated. Teachers have been unbundling and modifying and adapting content, personalizing learning, and sometimes in partnership with a learner for a long time.

That’s just good teaching practice. And so that’s unbundling at the curriculum level. And then the second tier up is unbundling at the course level and certainly with the rise of online courses both for secondary and also dual enrollment learners are choosing, they’re choosing to take courses that might not normally be offered in the onsite physical location in their school.

And so that’s unbundled the course options for students. And this also has applications in all the ed-tech products like Khan Academy is one of the most well-known ones where teachers are supplementing courses or even replacing courses with ed-tech products themselves. So we have curriculum.

And you have, of course, the third level is around school, and this is around school choice and private and public charters and magnet schools and anything in between. And then, of course, the recent accelerations in ESAs, just like it’s happening here in Arizona. ESA-funded schools where money can backpack to the students and the students’ families for them to then go and create stackable-type learning experiences as well as vouchers and even in the public system where you have schools within schools where students are choosing a micro-school or an academy within an individual school.

And so the school is the third level of places to unbundle. And then the fourth level is this idea of an ecosystem where learning can happen anywhere in school or out of school and the learner themselves are driving and stacking together a number of different experiences to put them together into a coherent and outcome-driven learning journey.

So what’s the goal? The goal is to ensure that every learner meets the expected or required outcomes. If you’re not in the public sector, they’re the expected. If they’re in the public sector, they’re the required, such as standards and competencies and things like that. In a manner where they’re challenged with relevant experiences and they feel like that they belong.

So that they can reach their full potential professionally, civically, and personally. So that’s the goal is when we’re thinking about unbundling is that there’s a curriculum level, the course level, the school level, and this ecosystem level.

Guest Introductions and Personal Experiences

Nate McClennen: And today, I’m super excited to be joined by a handful of guests from Arizona who are thinking about how to create learning experiences that are beyond and broader than what might exist in a more traditional classroom. They aim to reach more students and give them stronger experiences to get them ready for personal and professional success.

So, Jennifer Mellor, Chief Innovation Officer at the Greater Phoenix Chamber, representing not only the workforce but also doing a bunch of work in K-12. Chad Gestson, Executive Director of the Arizona Institute for Ed and the Economy at Northern Arizona University, representing higher education. Chad was also the previous superintendent of Phoenix Union High School District, which has created a number of ways to unbundle learning opportunities. And Whitney Marsh, Chief of Staff at ASU Prep Public Charter Network. Inside ASU, Arizona State University acts as an authorizer, running everything from bricks-and-mortar public charter schools to fully online charter schools, as well as a number of different opportunities in between.

ASU Prep is doing all sorts of pilots, modifications, and innovations to help create different models for learning. Welcome, Jennifer. Welcome, Chad. And welcome, Whitney, to the podcast today.

Chad Gestson: Thank you. Glad to be here.

Jennifer Mellor: Yeah, it’s great to be here.

Nate McClennen: So, we’re going to start with my favorite question, and I’m going to ask you to respond to it in the Twitter version because I know each one of these stories could go on for hours. When we think about unbundling, I’d like you to take a step back to your own K-12 experience when you were a student. What was an unbundled learning experience where you were highly engaged and also learned a lot? Sometimes we can be engaged but not learn much, so this is about both. Jennifer, I’m going to start with you. Take us down memory lane and talk to us about an experience.

Jennifer Mellor: As I was growing up, my father was a serial entrepreneur. He had a variety of businesses—from a grocery store to a catering company to a popcorn manufacturing company. It was an expectation that all of us kids were going to work in one of those environments.

I learned so much from that experience: employability skills, how to navigate customer service, the importance of showing up on time, and making sure you have integrity in your work. There were so many things I learned working alongside my dad and my family members. These lessons supplemented my education and prepared me for the future workforce.

Nate McClennen: That’s amazing. I don’t think I’ve ever had a podcast where someone’s parent was a popcorn entrepreneur. So that’s fantastic.

Jennifer Mellor: I was a popcorn princess.

Nate McClennen: Outstanding. And what’s amazing is that we’re always trying to think about entrepreneurial experiences for young people, and you had one embedded in your family’s way of life. That’s great, and we know there’s so much learning that happens. Thank you for sharing that. Whitney, what’s in your history?

Whitney Marsh: Thanks, Nate. Great question. The first thing that comes to mind is actually a class I signed up for during my junior year of high school at Highland High in Gilbert Public Schools here in Arizona. It was a community service course. I signed up because you were released during the seventh hour of the day, which sounded awesome as a junior in high school.

But there was a requirement: you had to clock 180 hours over the two semesters in community service projects. It was whatever you wanted to make it. You could find one project that you worked on consistently, a place where you served regularly, or engage in ad-hoc projects. That experience is what got me interested in education and, later, in education policy—being in schools, seeing how things worked, and asking questions like, “Why are we doing it this way?”

Through that class, I got to experience a variety of different volunteer organizations and work, which helped me find my passion. It was very self-directed, and my experience looked very different from other students’ experiences, showcasing the autonomy we had. We had to complete our hours, but we also found purpose in something meaningful to us.

Nate McClennen: Yeah, I love that. Especially the idea of purpose, right? I think sometimes service can feel like a box to check. What I’m hearing from you is that you got to see and experience places with purpose, which is often missing from students’ traditional classes or courses. Chad, finish this up—what’s your story?

Chad Gestson: I’ll share two quick ones because they relate to both Jennifer and Whitney.

First, in high school, my family owned a construction company. I’m a fourth-generation carpenter by trade, so I grew up in the trade—working weekends, nights, and during fall and spring breaks. I learned a valuable skill, along with the soft skills Jennifer mentioned earlier. Carpentry has helped me in my adult years as a homeowner, and it also paid for my college education. I worked full-time while attending the University of Washington in Seattle.

Second, while I was at UW, I joined the Inner Pipeline Project, which involved UW students working in Seattle Public Schools and applying what we learned in classrooms. I wasn’t an education major, but this unbundled experience with Seattle Public Schools is why I’m now in Arizona and in the education system.

Nate McClennen: Outstanding. I think every young person should have some sort of construction experience, just so they can take on projects in their homes or elsewhere without feeling too nervous about it. YouTube can only go so far—that’s my theory.

I’ll quickly share mine. I’ve had a lot of unbundled experiences, but one that stands out is from my childhood on a small farm. I’ve mentioned this before on the podcast, but my brothers and I built a lot of forts in the backyard. It was completely unorganized—no supervision. I think I learned a lot from those experiences, from architecture to construction materials, from keeping warm in winter to collaboration with my brothers (or tearing down each other’s forts).

Challenges and Solutions in Arizona’s Education System

Nate McClennen: Let’s shift gears. What’s the challenge that you’re trying to solve, either through your current organization or in your broader work? What are you addressing to help expand learning opportunities for young people? Chad, let’s start with you.

Chad Gestson: I spent 22 years in the K-12 system, the last eight years as superintendent of Arizona’s largest high school system. During that time, I saw an incredible need—and opportunity—to better connect education and the economy, specifically business and industry, higher education, and pre-K-12.

There are excellent examples of partnerships between high schools and businesses, between higher ed and businesses, and between high schools and higher ed. But when it comes to system-wide alignment, investment, and policy—linking the workforce down into the K-12 system—that’s where we have a big opportunity here in Arizona.

So, I launched the Arizona Institute for Education and the Economy to address this need. Our focus is on removing barriers, unbundling systems, and giving kids learning experiences that set them on a path toward workforce readiness, civic engagement, and healthy, productive adult lives.

Nate McClennen: And this is through Northern Arizona University? Is it a newly established center?

Chad Gestson: Yes, we’re about a year and a half old. We’re hosted by NAU but also partner with the University of Arizona, Arizona State University, and systems across the state. NAU has been a great partner in this work.

Nate McClennen: Whitney, what about ASU Prep? How does your work fit into this challenge of connecting K-12, higher ed, and the workforce?

Whitney Marsh: Personally, my journey has always been about leveraging education for social mobility. My parents had me in high school—just down the street from ASU’s Tempe campus—and my dad never graduated. For me, college became the pathway to achieve upward mobility and pursue my dreams.

Now, at ASU Prep, our focus is giving students that same opportunity. Only about one in five economically disadvantaged seniors in Arizona goes directly to a four-year degree program after high school. We’re working to bridge that gap by blurring the lines between high school and college, because there’s no college without career.

ASU Prep is also about lifelong learning. From K-12 to post-secondary education and beyond, we’re designing models that allow students to explore careers, earn college credits, and build skills for their futures. We’re piloting innovative programs like Khan World School, collaborating with professors, and creating hybrid models where students take courses on university campuses while still in high school.

We aim to meet students where they are while leveraging the broader ecosystem and policy environment to support them.

Nate McClennen: I love how ASU Prep is experimenting with these new models. You’re co-locating K-12 schools on university campuses, giving students access to college professors, courses, and career-connected pathways. It’s such a unique opportunity.

Jennifer, let’s turn to you. What challenge are you trying to solve through your work at the Greater Phoenix Chamber?

Jennifer Mellor: Arizona’s economy has diversified significantly in recent years, creating endless workforce and job opportunities. However, businesses often tell us they can’t find the workforce they need to grow. On the other side, we have students graduating high school without the skills or opportunities they need to succeed.

At the Greater Phoenix Chamber, we always say it’s not a skills gap; it’s an opportunity gap. Through our program, Elevate Ed AZ, we’re working to better prepare students for college and career. We do this by getting them into high-wage, high-demand CTE pathways, helping them earn early college credit and industry-recognized credentials, and providing work-based learning experiences like internships and job shadows.

We also focus on educator professional development to create a more transformational ecosystem for students. We partner with ASU Prep, Phoenix Union, and four other districts in the Greater Phoenix area to make this a reality.

Nate McClennen: So the chamber acts as an intermediary, connecting businesses with schools?

Jennifer Mellor: Exactly. We provide data on in-demand CTE pathways and industry-recognized credentials, while building strong partnerships with businesses to bring work-based learning opportunities into the classroom.

Nate McClennen: Whitney, does ASU Prep also incorporate CTE and career-connected pathways into your work?

Whitney Marsh: Absolutely. For many students, college is a way to pursue their career goals. But helping students find purpose and relevance is key to motivating them.

For example, at ASU Prep, we offer a mix of brick-and-mortar campuses, online learning, and micro-schools on ASU campuses. Students interact with professors through workshops or take college courses on campus. These experiences often spark an interest in specific career paths.

One student might participate in an architecture workshop and decide to explore a career in design. Another might take an engineering course and realize it’s not for them—which is just as valuable. By combining high school and college experiences, students can design their own pathways while aligning with their future goals.

Policy Barriers and Innovations

Nate McClennen: Chad, I want to dig a little deeper. What’s a specific program you’re excited about, something that’s pushing the envelope and exploring new possibilities?

Chad Gestson: We’ve recently launched a statewide coalition that we call H5. It stands for high school, higher ed, high wage, high skill, and high-demand workforce. This coalition brings together 20 school districts, Arizona’s three in-state universities, the four largest community college systems, and chambers of commerce, CEO groups, and economic development organizations from across the state.

The coalition focuses on system-wide alignment. We’re looking at big-picture policy issues, like graduation requirements, course pathways, and how we measure and hold schools accountable. But we’re also making sure that this work remains grounded at the local level. That’s why we partner with school districts—to ensure that the broader, statewide policies we’re discussing are informed by and responsive to local needs.

We held our first convening in September and have follow-up meetings regularly. This is a long-term effort, but the potential impact is significant.

Nate McClennen: Jennifer, how are employers engaging with these efforts? Are they just sitting back and saying, “We need better talent,” or are they actively participating?

Jennifer Mellor: It’s a mix. Some employers are hesitant to engage, citing concerns like liability or hiring restrictions for students under 18. But others are leaning in and making significant changes.

For example, Honeywell and Mayo Clinic both revised their hiring policies to allow high school students to work as interns. It didn’t happen overnight—it was an evolution. But once these employers saw how qualified and capable these students were, they wanted them on their teams. Now, hiring managers at Honeywell are proactively asking for more interns.

This approach has become a pipeline strategy for many businesses. They’re hiring students directly out of high school for some roles, while encouraging others to pursue post-secondary education and return for summer internships. It’s a win-win: students gain valuable experience, and employers build a talent pipeline.

Nate McClennen: That’s a great example of how businesses can adapt to meet workforce needs. Chad, does this issue of employer engagement come up in your coalition?

Chad Gestson: Absolutely. What Jennifer described is a common challenge, but as more businesses engage and see the benefits, those barriers start to fade. It’s a matter of reaching critical mass. Once enough companies embrace these models, it becomes clear that hiring high school students isn’t just possible—it’s beneficial.

Nate McClennen: Whitney, let’s bring this back to K-12. Are students recognizing the value of these opportunities? Do they demand more internships, college credits, and work-based learning experiences, or are we as adults building these systems and hoping the demand will follow?

Whitney Marsh: It’s a mix. At ASU Prep, we see demand from some students and families, but there’s also a learning curve. Families who enroll in our brick-and-mortar campuses often expect a traditional Monday-to-Friday, 8-to-3 school model. But we’ve introduced Family Choice Fridays, where students can choose to stay home, work on projects, or participate in internships and other experiences.

Initially, some families weren’t sure how to take advantage of these options. But as students see their peers engaging in internships or earning college credits, demand grows. For example, our Digital Plus program—where online students participate in in-person project-based learning—has seen steady growth.

We’re also emphasizing the financial benefits. Students at ASU Prep can start taking college courses as early as their freshman year—for free. This can save families tens of thousands of dollars, which is a huge motivator once they understand the opportunity.

Chad Gestson: Whitney makes a great point about the importance of awareness. Students often want these opportunities once they know they exist. But policies and systems need to catch up to make these options more accessible and scalable.

For example, Arizona’s instructional time model allows a lot of flexibility for student learning outside the classroom, but not everyone knows how to use it effectively. And high school graduation requirements are still very rigid. Even if students unbundle their learning, they’re often required to check the same boxes as everyone else—four years of this, three years of that—regardless of their unique pathways.

Jennifer Mellor: I completely agree. We need more flexible policies and resources to support students. For instance, dual enrollment is a proven way to increase post-secondary enrollment and persistence. But without adequate funding, many low-income students can’t access these opportunities.

Two years ago, we secured $15 million in tuition assistance for dual enrollment. Unfortunately, that funding was cut due to budget constraints. Restoring and expanding such resources would be transformational, particularly for underserved students.

We also need to ensure every student graduates with a credential, giving them currency to enter the workforce. That’s another barrier we’re working to address.

Whitney Marsh: Transportation is another huge challenge. At ASU Prep, we use grants to help students travel to university campuses or internship sites. But this funding is limited, and when it runs out, many families won’t have the means to access these opportunities.

Technology is also a barrier. Even in our online programs, we’re still figuring out how to integrate data from multiple systems into a single dashboard for teachers. We need to leverage technology more effectively to provide a seamless experience for students and educators.

Future Directions and Closing Remarks

Nate McClennen: I want to close by exploring what’s next. Chad, what are the key policy changes or system-level shifts that you think Arizona needs to better support unbundled learning?

Chad Gestson: I think we’ve made significant progress in Arizona, but there’s still more to do. For example, while Arizona has an instructional time model that allows for flexible learning outside of traditional school hours, we need better guidance and support to help schools and districts fully utilize it.

Graduation requirements are another big area. Right now, high school graduation is a one-size-fits-all model, with rigid requirements like four years of this and three years of that. But students have different passions, interests, and pathways. We need multiple graduation pathways that honor diverse skills and interests while maintaining rigor.

Finally, we need to better align systems. Unbundling learning requires a lot of coordination between K-12, higher ed, and the workforce. Our H5 coalition is a step in that direction, but we have to stay committed to breaking down silos and building systemic alignment.

Jennifer Mellor: I’d add that we need to address family perceptions. Many families don’t see post-secondary education as an option, whether due to financial barriers or a lack of awareness about available resources. Changing this mindset is critical to expanding opportunities for students.

We also need sustained funding for programs like dual enrollment and industry-recognized credentials. These are proven strategies for increasing student success, but without adequate funding, they remain out of reach for many.

Whitney Marsh: I completely agree. Funding is a huge challenge, particularly for things like transportation and dual enrollment. But we also need to tackle outdated systems, like seat-time requirements for online students. It’s absurd that we’re still measuring progress based on hours logged, especially in a digital learning environment.

Another area is technology. Schools need better tools to integrate data and provide actionable insights for teachers and students. At ASU Prep, we’re working on this, but there’s a long way to go before we fully leverage the potential of technology.

Nate McClennen: I love the points you’ve all raised. This idea of compliance versus agency is particularly powerful. Shifting from a compliance-based system to one that fosters student and family agency requires a major mindset change—not just for students, but for parents, teachers, and school leaders as well.

Let me summarize some of the key takeaways from today’s discussion:

Alignment is critical. Connecting K-12, higher ed, and the workforce is essential to creating meaningful pathways for students.
Big ideas must translate into student impact. It’s not enough to dream big; we need to implement and test these ideas at the student level.
Unbundling requires integration. College and career pathways are not separate—they’re deeply interconnected, and we need hundreds of options to serve diverse student needs.
Employers play a key role. As Jennifer highlighted, businesses that adapt their hiring policies and engage with students can create lasting pipelines of talent.
Policy needs to catch up. From graduation requirements to dual enrollment funding, there are still many policy barriers that need to be addressed.
Agency over compliance. Unbundled learning systems must empower students and families to take charge of their education, which requires a shift in how we think about school.

Thank you, Chad, Jennifer, and Whitney, for sharing your insights and the incredible work you’re doing. To our listeners, be sure to check out the show notes for more resources and links to the programs we discussed today.

Whitney Marsh: Thank you.

Jennifer Mellor: Thanks for having us, Nate.

Dr. Chad Geston

Dr. Chad Gestson serves as the founding Executive Director of the Arizona Institute for Education and the Economy, a collective impact group with a mission of cultivating solutions that drive educational and economic equity and prosperity in Arizona. He also serves as the Special Advisor to the President on K-12 Initiatives at Northern Arizona University. Gestson spent 22 years in K-12 education, most recently as Superintendent of Arizona’s largest high school district, Phoenix Union High School District (PXU), from 2015-2023. Under his leadership, Phoenix Union also launched a new school concept never before seen in America – PXU City, a school that uses the city, not a campus, as the classroom.

Whitney Marsh

Whitney is the chief of staff at ASU Prep Academy. As the driving force behind policy implementation for yes. every kid. foundation, Whitney brings over a decade of experience in the public sector, advancing educational opportunities for all. Born and raised in Arizona, she most recently served as the deputy chief of staff to the Superintendent of Public Instruction. Whitney led the nation’s largest independent state charter school authorizer, overseeing 530+ schools as the executive director of the Arizona State Board for Charter Schools. A proud ASU and Vanderbilt alumna, Whitney currently resides in Scottsdale with her family.

Jennifer Mellor

Jennifer Mellor currently oversees the Greater Phoenix Chamber Foundation, focusing on education and workforce. Jennifer has served in a variety of roles at the Chamber over the past 17 years. Mellor is a licensed CPA and, prior to joining the Chamber, worked in accounting roles at Best Software and Casino Arizona. Mellor has more than 10 years of experience in accounting and more than 20 years of experience in business operations.

Mellor holds an accounting degree from Arizona State University and an MBA from the University of Phoenix. She has served on several boards and commissions and is a community advocate.

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