Dr. Christopher Emdin and sam seidel on From White Folks Who Teach in the Hood

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In this episode of the Getting Smart Podcast, Shawnee Caruthers gets into a profound discussion with Dr. Christopher Emdin and sam seidel about their latest work, “From White Folks Who Teach in the Hood.” This conversation is essential for educators who are ready to challenge their own biases and rethink their roles in marginalized communities. Emdin and Seidel explore the importance of cultural competency and equity in education, asking educators to not only impart academic knowledge but also to create inclusive environments where all students feel seen and valued. They emphasize the need for educators to become agents of change, taking accountability for their impact and actively working to dismantle systemic inequities in the classroom.

Throughout the episode, Emdin and Seidel share compelling insights and practical strategies for white educators to leverage their positionality to interrupt systemic oppression and engage in continuous, uncomfortable work that challenges racism and privilege. Listeners will learn about the significance of listening to students, acknowledging their lived experiences, and fostering authentic relationships that empower rather than “save.” This episode is a call to action for educators to move beyond neutrality, taking intentional steps to reflect on their teaching practices and embrace the transformative power of cultural awareness and allyship in education.

Outline

• (01:04) Discussing ‘From White People Who Teach in a Hood’
• (03:04) Challenges and Reflections on Cultural Competency
• (10:20) Practical Steps and Final Thoughts

Shawnee Caruthers: You’re listening to the Getting Smart Podcast. I’m Shawnee Caruthers. Welcome to today’s podcast, where we’ll dive into a conversation that is both timely and critical for educators across the nation.

Discussing ‘From White People Who Teach in a Hood’

Shawnee Caruthers: We’re joined by sam seidel and Christopher Emdin, two thought leaders who have continually pushed the boundaries of how we think about education, culture, and equity in the classroom. Their latest work, “From White People Who Teach in a Hood,” challenges educators to reflect on their own biases, reimagine their approach to teaching in marginalized communities, and embrace the complexities of cultural competency. In a time where systemic inequities in education are at the forefront of national conversations, this book offers a bold and necessary lens for understanding the relationship between white teachers and their students of color.

Today’s conversation comes from the growing need to address the disconnect that often exists in classrooms where cultural and experiential gaps are prevalent. As educators, we are tasked with not only teaching academic content but also cultivating environments where all students feel seen, heard, and valued. In their book, Sam and Chris lay out practical guidance for educators to bridge those divides and build more inclusive, transformative learning spaces.

We’ll explore how educators can reframe their practices, take accountability for their impact, and become agents of change within the larger educational system. Sam, Chris, what up?

sam seidel: What up?

Shawnee Caruthers: Hey, how are y’all?

Chris Emdin: What a dope intro. Thank you for that. And it’s a synopsis of the book and a really, like, kind way to describe both my brother and me. So thank you.

Shawnee Caruthers: I’m always excited to talk to you all. You all are, as just, high on my list of, like, dope people and great conversationalists. And I know that people are going to really feel something special as a result of this conversation, because regardless if I’m talking to either one of you, I always walk away inspired. So I’m super excited for our audience to feel the same. So let’s talk about inspiration.

Challenges and Reflections on Cultural Competency

Shawnee Caruthers: What inspired you to collaborate on the second book, and what was the driving force behind the message?

Chris Emdin: The premise behind this one was, like, the consequence of putting out For White Folks Who Teach in the Hood and really paying attention to, not like, the sort of overarching kind of emotion that folks had in the book—folks have really positive emotions around it—but the kind of labor that it took for me and other Black educators and Black thinkers. As folks dealt with the ideas in the book, and I held that in my heart, now they want me to tell them every little thing they need to do and what should white people be doing and what’s our role in this. And as I was carrying all of that, Sam was like, “Yo, Chris, I think we should put something together to get some white folks to really think through these issues and really make meaning of their experiences and tell the ways that they’ve been able to engage with these really complex issues.”

And so it all came together really synergistically at the right time. And then we decided to just put this thing together. We both knew educators who were working in spaces with diverse populations who were struggling with making meaning of the ways that whiteness and white supremacist culture permeates their practices. And some who had come to either A, like, a place of settling and some that are still sitting in tension. And we thought, why not allow them to speak to this work? And frankly, so it ain’t Black folks always telling white folks what to do about this work, because y’all need to get y’all mans. And so the book is equal parts, like, a responsibility, but also like an opportunity for white educators to take on their own piece of this work into this struggle, particularly if they articulate that they’re about that life and don’t have a chance to do so.

Shawnee Caruthers: Yeah. And Sam, we know you are about that life. Chris talked about the suggestion, but say more about what was it that was really standing out to you that made you want to say, listen, we really need to do this.

sam seidel: First of all, Chris mentioned his earlier book For White Folks Who Teach in the Hood, and I think it’s important we don’t gloss or slide over that. I think if you’re listening or watching this and you have not engaged with that text, please pick up that book. There’s a lot in there for you, and a lot of what we’re going to get into here in some way builds on that.

This book really attempts not to be the only voice in the book, in the room, or in the conversation when it comes to talking about white supremacy or how race or racism play out in schools.

To get to your question, Shawnee, about why I came to Chris with that energy and passion to do From White Folks Who Teach in the Hood—I lead a lot of professional learning experiences for K-12 educators all over the globe. And we talk explicitly about the ways that race and other forms of systemic violence play out and how those impact our students and how those impact our work in schools as educators.

One of the things I’ll often say is, the work is never done, right? There’s always more to do to—hopefully someday it’s done, but the work is not done. So if you went to a three-day training and you realized racism exists and you had that realization, that’s great. But to say, “Okay, I got it figured out now, I can move on, I am woke, past tense, or present, that’s my present state now,” misses the point. You should always—it’s always a process of awakening; there’s always more to do. And speaking as a white educator, I felt that the statement was hollow, because if someone in the audience had the wherewithal to ask me, “Okay, Sam, so it’s always a process that we’re all in. There’s always a learning edge. What would you say is your learning edge right now?” I didn’t really have an answer, and I knew that was hypocritical. And so, to me, a piece of that was actually learning how to talk about whiteness as a white educator.

And I can give you a lot of language on how systemic racism functions in our public education system and in our society at large and how that impacts our students. But for me to actually talk about myself and my own role and my white identity is very challenging. So I realized that is a learning edge for me. That is an area where I don’t have all the language. And when I looked back at my first book, Hip Hop Genius, I saw myself hiding from or avoiding that part of the conversation. I was celebrating the brilliance of Black and Brown students, the brilliance of Black educators who created an amazing institution for students for whom other schools hadn’t worked, and I’m telling this whole story. And it’s only in the last three pages—a note from the author—that I say anything about who I am and how I’m showing up in any of that. And so to me it was in some ways a selfish endeavor. And I don’t know, Chris, if you would agree with that, given all the books you’ve written at this point. For me, a lot of times, working on a book comes from wishing there was a book that I can’t find. And I’m like, I guess we got to make it. And that was very much the case with this book. I was like, “How are other white folks in schools thinking and talking about race and identity and culture, not as an abstract thing over there to analyze, but personally?” And when I couldn’t find the book I was looking for, I hollered at my brother and said, “I think we have a project that we need to work on together.”

Chris Emdin: What’s so really, like, interesting about that is it’s if Sam’s feeling like, yo, this is a book that I needed, I was also thinking this is a book that the folks that I engage with need, right? And that’s not to say that the initial offering didn’t give them what they needed, but sometimes you have to understand that when you ask somebody who you love or see yourself in to share something with you, it’s very different than when an outsider does. And you might be provoked by an outsider’s, like, sort of words or might see what they offer to you as a provocation. But it’s all—look, I’m, I keep it a buck, like, I’m still, I’m not white. I’m not them. I’m not you. I can say, “Listen, here’s what I think you need,” but there’s some kind of, there’s a little caveat there like, “Yeah, but that’s you saying it.” It’s—I’ll engage with folks sometimes and just share some pedagogical practices with them. And they’ll be like, “Dr. Emdin, I don’t know if you notice this, but I’m not Black, I’m not as charismatic.” I’m like, as though that’s a requirement to engage in what I’m offering them.

And it’s—they’ll find reasons why they can’t engage. “I can’t really think about those things because I’m not quite Black.” Or, “I can’t think about those things, I’m not coming to this from the perspective you are.” And I understood that little point where there’s a gap between what I’m sharing and them taking it up was them seeing those things said from the mouths of people who they identify with in a very different way—not to say they don’t love me or they don’t appreciate me or they don’t respect me. But it’s like there’s something different when it comes from someone who looks like you, who has shared experiences as you, who’s going to be vulnerable about how they screwed up in a way that I can’t tell you to do. And for me, it’s like, it’s a completion of the ideas. And for white folks to have an offering from white folks, because the messages are ultimately very similar. So you don’t feel alien, right? All of us are like, “Yo, this is where I felt mad racist,” and saying it out loud or.

Or, look, that was just a point in my life when I, like—but then, this is the point where I had the aha moment. And if you can identify those moments for yourself and map onto that, your capacity. Your ability, your initiative to take the next step is increased, is improved.

Practical Steps and Final Thoughts

Shawnee Caruthers: So what are some of those examples? ‘Cause when you talked about being provoked, like, it’s one thing to say, “I cannot engage in this work because it is not from someone who looks like me.” There’s another thing to say, “Oh, now you got a book. There’s no excuse.” But in what ways are you hearing that those who were against it, who are able to now dive into this new book, how have they been provoked? And then for both you and Sam, Chris, based on talking to all of the different people that contributed to the book, what provoked each of you?

Chris Emdin: Thinking about some of our authors, like, thinking about Jared Fox, who in his own head was doing the right thing and instead of realizing the ways that, as he was doing the right thing for young folks of color, he was in many ways not listening to or censoring the voice of a co-teacher who had these deep community roots that was right underneath his nose, right? That’s just so honest. And I would argue so real for so many white educators. And for somebody to just name that narrative, like state that narrative out loud, it’s just magical. Or, one of my favorite chapters is actually from Sam’s brother.

And again, many of these narratives are about folks who were like, “In my head, in my heart, I’m there.” And then in my practice, I find that there are limitations. “I’m working within this institution who in many ways I’m proud to be a part of,” that’s what his chapter is about. And then I’m realizing in many ways that I become a piece of the system that runs counter to what my intention is and the heartbreak of realizing that and the quest for redemption that comes out of that. If that doesn’t both break your heart and give you inspiration, I don’t know what does.

And for those who are going to read this book, you could also just read it for the stories of teachers. Like, that’s the piece I love the most—the stories of folks who are working within these systems and realize how janky these systems are. Or folks who are like, “You know what, aha, here’s some things you can do real quick because I found them, and I’m so excited to share them.” You’re going to read it for information, but you’re going to just love reading it for the narratives.

sam seidel: Yeah, I agree with all of that. And for the record, in case he’s listening, I also love my brother’s piece. But three things came to my mind when you asked the question, Shawnee. So one is I was really moved by how many of our writers, the act of writing the piece sent them back to talk with former students and colleagues, which I think is a really powerful practice and one that it’s easy to make up excuses not to do, especially when you’re thinking about something that you did or said or didn’t do or didn’t say that you think caused harm.

Really inspiring. And I can get pretty negative about social media, but several of the authors use social media to stay in touch with those students and former colleagues and made it possible to hop on, within 24 hours sometimes, to say, “Hey, how did you feel about this situation?” And Chris mentioned Jared a minute ago—Jared did that. He went back to this co-teacher and said, “Can we unpack these interactions we had years ago?” I just find that powerful and provocative to me to return to conversations with folks.

Secondly, one of the things that, like, stopped me in my tracks when we were first editing the book was one of the essays by Jim Bentley. He talks about the impact of something like a two-day DEI-type professional development engagement. And for those of us who do a lot of work in this space, I think the two-day DEI session has gotten a bad rap, right? Because it’s like checklist. Okay. We did that. We can move on without necessarily doing a lot of what needs to be done institutionally to change anything. And all those critiques are fair. What really struck me was the way in which that training was an inflection point. He sees his life as BT—before training—and AT. Like that set him on a course that he hasn’t quit. And it really rocked me in terms of my own critique of what a one- or two- or three-day training can be. That was very provocative to me because I think I had gotten into a really dismissive space around those shorter engagements. And it flipped that for me.

And then I think three, I’m getting emails from folks who are reading the book and writing, and that has been—they’re being provoked to just do the kind of reflective writing that was modeled in the book. One of whom sent me a piece he wrote 20 years ago and then also something he’s written more recently. I just love that. I just love that. And we’re going to start publishing those on our site. We have a site fromwhitefolks.org—I think dot com works too—but fromwhitefolks.org for sure. Where right now we have some information about the book and the contributors and a little bit of the media we’ve been putting together. But we’re going to start publishing some of these pieces because to me, I feel uncomfortable with this 24 voices in this book being the only voices or stopping the conversation here. I feel like we’re starting to scratch the surface. We’re starting to excavate. And there’s more to go. There’s more digging to go. And I think that if we start to be able to publish what is provoked by reading this book—and that doesn’t have to just be from white folks, right? That might be folks of any racial identity who engage with the text and have something to say about it. But I think that it’s going to get us to something deeper.

Chris Emdin: And I’m so glad you said that. ‘Cause I want people to really understand what the purpose of this book is in a way that’s beyond a compilation of carefully edited essays, also about people understanding the immense responsibility that it is to face this—where you’re situated ethnically, racially, culturally in this work. You know what I mean? The pieces that were selected are really intentionally reflective and really intentionally, like, capturing wow moments. And it’s supposed to trigger something in you that goes beyond the book. The book, for me, I like to think of it as a movement starter. Like it’s—that’s why we have fromwhitefolks.org. That’s why we have this sort of podcast conversation series. For us, the book was the beginning of opening up the space for these folks to really face themselves in this work and not run away from it in a way that we have a tendency to whenever we’re challenged.

And so—and one of the things I believe about this book, and it’s done so far—the first week sales, like, we’re up there, whatever else it is, but I, in my head and in my heart, it’s a slow burn, right? It’s a “I’m going to stumble into this thing and be challenged and provoked.” It’s, “I’m going to pick it up, leave it on the side, not really like one essay, and then see myself so clearly in one that I get on a different journey.” Like, it was literally edited to be a provocateur for people in very intricate ways.

Chris Emdin: It’s such a humbling experience to be the ones to bring these voices together, to capture a wide swath of things that will invoke something in other people. And I want folks who read it to really think about, “Yo, why’d they pick this one? How does this one speak to that one?” Because, fam, it was intentional and it was thoughtful. And I really hope people get that in addition to the beauty of the narratives.

Shawnee Caruthers: One of the things that’s really sticking out to me is this conviction of honesty and to repair harm. And Chris, it made me think back—I forgot what conference we were at, but we were at a conference where you were talking about the retraumatization of Black and Brown boys, or whoever, when we send them back into schools, expect them to go into education, and how that can be traumatizing based on the experience that they had.

And then, Sam, I was listening to you describe how the teacher recognized that he was diminishing that fellow co-teacher, whoever was talking about that, and how they went back and had those conversations to unpack that learning. And so I guess what I’m trying to understand—and for anyone, a white person or whoever, because harm can come from all different spaces—what is the process to, one, recognize that the harm has occurred, and, two, remove it? And you talk in the book about the white savior complex and all the things of that nature. And so if someone is listening to this and they’re like, “Wow, that’s really resonating with me. I read the book and I feel convicted, but I just don’t know where to start to get to the space in which they’re talking and then bring others alongside me,” what does that look like?

sam seidel: Yeah, a couple thoughts on that. One is there’s a piece in the book by Jeff Embleton about restorative and transformative justice being led by young folks, and not to put more burden or labor on the young folks of color who many of us work with. But there’s a lot that can be learned, and there are young folks who have chosen to be teachers and facilitators of restorative and transformative justice practices. So I think there’s a lot to be learned from that work, from that whole field of work, and specifically from some of that work that Jeff had an opportunity to support earlier in his career.

That said, I think reading is a good starting point for some of this, right? Familiarizing oneself with some of the language, I think, is a starting point in figuring out what the process looks like. That’s what Jamie’s modeling. That’s what Jared is modeling in that relationship. Chris mentioned earlier, talking with the co-teacher—they’re actually modeling looking critically at their own version of what the story was and then reaching out and having a conversation with others. Justin did it too. Wow, I’m—why are we shouting out all the J authors? I swear there’s people with other names than Justin, Jared, Jamie, and Jeff.

But that’s what he does too. He reaches back to a friend from high school who he had witnessed a racist incident between a white teacher and this friend of his and follows up. So a lot of the authors modeled it. And I think just reading those stories is a starting point to say, “Oh, people do this.” I’m not the only person in the world who’s, A, made a mistake or, B, had an interest in trying to repair. Let me learn how some people have gone about that. Let me see what has come out of that. And I think in digging into those stories, that can be a starting point to say, “Okay, I think I’ve got an idea. I could pop on social media the way some of these authors did. I could make an invitation for a conversation. I could borrow from some of these restorative and transformative justice practices.”

I think Lisa Graustein’s essay would be another great one because she talks about doing work both in racial affinity and across racial difference, right? There’s obviously a lot of other things people could read that would also help them.

Chris Emdin: I’m thinking in particular about Corey’s chapter and Adam Weinstock’s chapter. And why I like those is because their entry points were actually about, look, a lot of stuff’s going on, but one thing I recognize is I have some privilege. And I think sometimes that’s entry, like, sometimes the entry point is just the recognition of where you sit within the inequity, and then, like, making sure—like Corey’s mantra, “Don’t waste your white,” knowing that your whiteness holds power. And you can wield that power to either oppress or to, like, illuminate somebody’s perspectives or to just offer some cover for folks to do good work. That is the point of healing. Like, just saying, “It’s not about me and my brokenness. It’s about me and what I hold and how I’m going to provide cover, or I’m just going to recognize, yo, I don’t want to be just another white man in charge,” like Adam articulates. And I think that there are a multiplicity of entry points for various people.

And I think part of the reason why folks get paralyzed is because they’re looking for the script. They’re like, “Okay, I went to the PD, I read the book, I should be woke now. What do I do next?” And it’s, “Yo, fam, I can’t tell you what to do next. I just want you to operate with a recognition of where you are and hopefully find some experiences, some narratives, some truths that you can utilize as a way to have your entry point.” And I think we live in a world where everybody wants a script on what to do next. “Okay, you’ve convinced me. Check. Now what?” The world doesn’t work that way. Why? Because harm doesn’t get inflicted in that way, right? Microaggressions are varied, and sometimes it’s the accumulation of microaggressions that break the backs and souls of babies or human beings. Sometimes it’s an overt slap in the face that makes somebody feel like, “Oh my God, what are you doing to me?” Sometimes it’s not even a person. Sometimes it’s the curriculum that somebody wields that becomes the mechanism through which somebody else gets broken. And so because harm gets inflicted in both overt and hard, in-your-face ways and subtle and unintentional but nevertheless harmful ways, there are no pathways, only a recognition.

And then a beacon that one can look at to say, “I will follow that light towards healing.”

Shawnee Caruthers: You’re surfacing a lot of great things, like, in the books, you really challenge traditional pedagogical approaches in the book. And so you mentioned, like, Corey’s chapter about “don’t waste your whiteness.” In what ways do you envision white educators leaning into that?

So, in what ways do you envision, like, how they can truly rethink their role in urban classrooms so they don’t waste their whiteness?

Chris Emdin: When you witness oppression, when you witness brokenness, when you witness the system doing what it does to Black and Brown bodies or other bodies, when you witness, you know, misogyny or misogynoir, when you witness, like, homophobia, when you witness someone intentionally refusing to use someone’s pronouns, when you witness anything that inflicts harm, utilize your positionality to say, “Stop.”

I think what white folks often do is say, “It’s not my place.” For folks who hold power, it’s a responsibility. And I think—you know, and then, you know, all of a sudden it’s played with responsibility. I love this idea of, like, responsibility is useless if you cannot enact a responsibility, right? Like, a lot of folks, “I witnessed it, and I feel responsible, but I’m paralyzed.” Okay, great. How do you move from holding a responsibility to say, “I am not going to enact a response, an ability to respond to what I’ve witnessed and not be a bystander”?

And so I think that’s a really beautiful way—is viewing whiteness as a mechanism for interruption of oppression that happen, frankly, in a particular way with white bodies. I’m not okay with the way the capital punishment is wielded against the Black body. Despite supposed victims’ families saying, “Nah,” despite evidence that says, “Well, the folks you said did it ain’t saying—they not here to say that,” despite the absence of forensic evidence, like, I can say, “Hey, that’s problematic. That’s racist. That’s white supremacist culture. Look at the history of this judge. Look at the history of this DA. Look what’s going on.” And folks say, “Ah, of course, he’s gonna say that. That’s the Black dude, social justice dude, saying that,” and it said, and if a white person with honesty and witnessing the same inequity can say, “I don’t know what it’s like to live in that skin, but I can say out loud, that is wrong” to other white people, that’s the beginning.

Shawnee Caruthers: Yeah. And Sam, so—and you’re about to jump in, and I want you to do that, but I also want you to answer in what ways, or what are some examples that you have seen where that whiteness has interrupted oppression? Are there any examples that you can give us of what that looks like?

sam seidel: What we just shared on social media yesterday, Shawnee, a clip of Justin Cohen offering a different way to think about that moment that Chris was just describing where something misogynistic, something homophobic is going down, and you start rationalizing all the reasons not to say something about it. And I really appreciate Justin’s reframe that he offers, which is, “Your job in that moment isn’t necessarily to convince everyone of this other truth. It’s simply to make them engage with the example of the racist relative at the holiday table.” What you’re not going to do is let them walk away from the table with anyone thinking that only the way that that racist thinks relative presented things is the way that the world can be seen. They’re going to walk away from the table saying there are other ways, there is another—there are other truths there, or there is a truth that has been acknowledged. And so I really appreciated Justin’s push on that because I think that a lot of times people start to come up with all the reasons why it doesn’t matter, or they shouldn’t take that risk or say that thing

And I think kind of lowering the expectation of oneself to say, “I can’t control what everyone else at this table is going to think, but I can make sure that they don’t leave not having heard this.” I think there’s something valuable in that that I hope people can carry and can embody.

The other piece I wanted to pick up on, you know—so Chris and I were talking about editing books, and then Chris, you were just making these connections between the institutional racism that we face and whose voices are heard and how they’re heard when we address them in the education system, and then zooming out to connect that to the prison-industrial complex and mass incarceration in this country.

Shawnee Caruthers: There are so many things that are just coming up that you all are just going to have to come back. I’m just going to have to do a part two at this point, because as we think about cultural competencies and how that has been a recurring theme throughout the book and some other connective tissues that you all have surfaced throughout this call.

But I kind of want to end by talking about an essay within the book. Ali discussed the true allyship in education, that how that involves ongoing, uncomfortable work, rather than just claiming the title of ally. What does this continuous work look like for educators, and how can they ensure they’re actively challenging racism and privilege in their day-to-day teaching practice? And you talked about the neutrality, which Lisa talked about in her essay. And so it’s like, how do we get to that space where we move away from “It’s not my place”? How do we get to the kind of “utopia” that Ali references?

Chris Emdin: You know, the beauty of working with children is that if you come to them the right way, they’re always interested in being what I call in Ratchetdemic—I write about elevators. Like, they just want to be your elevator. They want to take you higher. Their whole goal is to make you good enough for them. I think the beginning point of getting to Ali’s ideal is just listening to the babies. It’s not that deep. They’ll call you out when you’re enacting practices that harm them. They will hold up a mirror when your racist self emerges. Their faces turn to mirrors, and you see yourself, and it’s about the humility to be able to see that. And just to engage with them. I think that’s really the answer to it.

And I’ve written about cogenerative dialogues and all these other practices, but ultimately the essence of the work of beginning your journey, especially pedagogically, is just to ask the babies what you should be doing. Like, “What should I be doing for you? What did I miss? Where did I get it wrong? How can I be better?” See, a lot of folks can do the first part too. They don’t like the, “How can I be better?” Because the “How can I be better?” requires your ego to just, right? But I think asking the babies those questions gets us to that utopia.

And I also want to say to people, like, yo, understand that the world could be on fire, broken, distorted, people lying on the highest of platforms. And I always think of the classroom as a microcosm of a world not yet. Like, it’s our opportunity to see utopia in real time, even when the world around us is dysfunctional. And so if you see a classroom as this, like, futurist space that can get us to what the world should look like, with these little humans who will guide us on that journey, I think we get there.

sam seidel: Ali’s essay is in a section of the book called Teaching Teachers, and we opened that section of the book with a quote from Jay Electronica, from a song called Letter to Fallon, and he’s got these kind of two parts, and so he’s talking about some aspects, and he says, “That’s science,” and then he talks about some other stuff, and he says, “That’s magic.” And we opened the section with that part because that’s the combination that is necessary, right? There are certain things that are like learning how to do it and practicing and building the muscles.

But then I was talking to a collaborator, coach, brother of mine this morning, Cortland Butts, and he said, “What good is a protocol without a soul that wields it?” So we could have all the right stuff. We studied all the text. We know the moves we’re supposed to make, but if the soul isn’t there, what are we doing? And young people, of course, feel that. So Chris, to your point—like, yeah. Asking “How could I improve or do things differently?” can be hard; what’s even harder is listening to the answer.

And young folks can tell if you really want to hear it and can tell if you are really hearing it and at least attempting and trying to metabolize it. Waking up every day, taking on the science piece, improving our craft but also doing the hard work and pouring love and joy and possibility into students and being present and really open to receiving it back. That’s the magic.

Shawnee Caruthers: So what advice would you all give both as closing words as to how to bring that magic every day no matter who you are if we’re just focusing on the babies?

Chris Emdin: Treat yourself like the babies, too. You know what I mean? Give yourself the grace. Give yourself second chances. Love you. Spend time with you. Forgive yourself when you get it wrong and then be willing to learn. Be humble enough to recognize where you’ve erred and then wise enough to be able to work on the things where you’ve erred to be better. Part of the beauty of this book is that it’s not a book of answers. It’s a book of possibilities. “Oh, this is possible. Well, I could possibly try that.” You know, “I could probably do what he did there, or why, she really had that, right? Maybe.” And it’s like, that—that’s about child-likeness.

You know, a child is willing to take the leaps into possibilities. And so when you encounter possibilities, be childlike. Treat yourself like the child in a curious world, trying to make meaning and trying to be better. And if you go that route, you’ll be okay.

sam seidel: Well, I think part of it is knowing when and pushing yourself to speak when there are things that need to be said, but also knowing when to shut up. And I think after what Chris just said, I know to shut up. So I’ll leave it. I’ll leave it at that.

Shawnee Caruthers: Well, I’m truly honored to have this conversation with both of you. It’s very reminiscent of another time, Chris, that I heard you talk about when we don’t do the internal work, we dump on the kids. And they don’t deserve that. And so everything that you all just said about the science and the magic and giving ourselves grace and space because we’re going to mess up—it’s all the things that we need to do in order to heal, in order to give others permission to heal.

I truly appreciate you all for helping us to see that there are other ways, that there are other truths, and everybody has a story to tell, and it’s our responsibility to really step into that space and not say, “It isn’t my place.” So thank you both for bringing the science and the magic.

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Chris Emdin

Dr. Christopher Emdin is the Maxine Greene Chair for Distinguished Contributions to Education and Professor of Science Education at Teachers College, Columbia University. He is also the  Director of Creativity, Innovation and Entrepreneurship At the STEAM DREAM and Ideal Lab.

He previously served as Robert Naslund Endowed Chair in Curriculum Theory at the University of Southern California, where he was Director of Youth and Community Partnerships at the USC Race and Equity Center.

Dr. Emdin is an alumni fellow at the Hip-hop Archive and Hutchins Center at Harvard University, Scholar in Residence at Lincoln Center for the Performing Arts and was STEAM Ambassador for the U.S. Department of State and Minorities in Energy Ambassador for the U.S. Department of Energy.

Dr. Emdin holds a Ph.D in Urban Education with a concentration in Mathematics, Science, and Technology; Masters degrees in both Natural Sciences and Education and Bachelors degrees in Physical Anthropology, Biology, and Chemistry.

He is the creator of the HipHopEd social media movement, Science Genius BATTLES and the CREATE Accelerator – an initiative that funds non-profits focused on culture and education. He has been named one of the 27 people bridging divides in the United States by Time magazine and the Root 100 lis of most influential African Americans.

He is the author of numerous award winning works; including the Strage Prize awardee, Urban Science Education for the Hip-hop Generation and the New York Times bestseller, For White Folks Who Teach In the Hood and the Rest of Ya’ll too. His latest books are STEM STEAM Make Dream and Ratchetdemic: Reimagining Academic Success.

sam seidel

sam has spent over 20 years working in, designing, launching, and writing about schools and youth programs. this work has happened while working at some pretty great organizations, including AS220, Big Picture Learning, City Year, and the Stanford d.school.  

after his first book, Hip Hop Genius was released in 2011, he spent several years touring the world, speaking with educators and students, leading professional development sessions for and consulting to school districts, nonprofits, and foundations.

he has worked with young people to design new schools and out-of-school programs. and he has led teams of designers in the creation of some cool stuff—from a career exploration reality show for high school students to several national fellowships for teachers and education leaders. 

sam has co-authored/co-edited four books: From White Folks Who Teach in the Hood, Creative Hustle, Changing the Conversation about School Safety, and Hip Hop Genius 2.0. his writing has also appeared in The Washington Post, Stanford Social Innovation Review, Education Week, The 74, Voices in Urban Education, and UnBoxed.

before he started working in and on schools, he went to some, including Graham & Parks Alternative Public School, Cambridge Rindge & Latin, The Mountain School, and Brown University, from which he graduated with a degree in Education and a teaching certification. he is an Adjunct Professor at Stanford University, and has served as a Visiting Practitioner at Harvard Graduate School of Education, a Scholar-in-Residence at Columbia University’s Institute for Urban and Minority Education, and a Community Fellow at the Rhode Island School of Design.

Links

• Watch the full video here
• Chris Emdin
• STEM, STEAM, Make Dream
• sam seidel LinkedIn
• sam seidel Bio
• From White Folks Website 
• sam seidel and Olatunde Sobomehin on the Creative Hustle and Blazing Your Own Path
• Getting Smart and the d.school: Live from SXSW
• Chris Emdin on STEM, STEAM, Make Dream
• For White Folks Who Teach in the Hood … and the Rest of Y’all Too
• From White Folks Who Teach in the Hood
• Joy James
• Imprisoned Intellectuals
• Justin Coen on Reframing the Holiday Dinner