Tasia Chatman and Jeff Sudmyer on Making High School Meaningful

This episode of the Getting Smart Podcast is a part of our New Pathways campaign. In partnership with American Student Assistance (ASA), the Bill & Melinda Gates Foundation, Stand Together and the Walton Family Foundation, the New Pathways campaign will question education’s status quo and propose new methods of giving students a chance to experience success in what’s next. 

On this episode of the Getting Smart Podcast, New Pathways Senior Fellow Trace Pickering is joined by Dr. Tasia Chatman, Director of Learning Experiences at Springpoint and Jeff Sudmyer, Director of School Leadership.

As the Director of Learning Experiences, Tasia supports the design, development, and scale of Springpoint Transformative Learning Experiences. Tasia brings over 16 years of teaching and curriculum design experience. Her expertise is in curriculum design reflective of Universal Design for Learning and Culturally Responsive Teaching.

As Director of School Leadership, Jeff draws on over twenty years of experience as a teacher and administrator to coach principals and collaborate with leaders and teachers at Springpoint partner schools who are working to create innovative high schools.

Together, they discuss the elements of a transformative learning experience, making high school meaningful and much more. 

Transcript

Trace Pickering: You’re listening to the Getting Smart Podcast. I’m New Pathways Senior Fellow Trace Pickering. Today, I’m joined by Dr. Tasia Chapman, Director of Learning Experiences at Springpoint, and Jeff Sudmayer, Director of School Leadership at Springpoint. As you know, I’ve worked some with Springpoint over the past year doing school visits, and we recently interviewed David Weinberg from there. Today, we’re going to get to hear a little bit more about some of Springpoint’s work in the field of education and school leadership. As the Director of Learning Experiences, Tasia supports the design, development, and scale of Springpoint’s transformative learning experiences. Tasia brings over 16 years of teaching and curriculum design experience, with expertise in curriculum design reflective of Universal Design for Learning (UDL) and culturally responsive teaching (CRT). Tasia, good to see you—welcome! And as Director of School Leadership, Jeff draws on over 20 years of experience as a teacher and administrator to coach principals and collaborate with leaders and teachers at Springpoint partner schools working to create innovative high schools.

Tasia Chapman: Hi. Thank you. Thank you for having me.

Trace Pickering: Welcome, Jeff.

Jeff Sudmayer: Hi, Trace. Thanks for having us.

Trace Pickering: I’m excited to talk to you both today. I’m a big fan of Springpoint’s work, so I always enjoy the opportunity to talk with folks involved with Springpoint. It’s a wonderful organization. So, I think my first question for both of you is: tell us about the work you do at Springpoint. Maybe start with what led you to Springpoint schools.

Tasia Chapman: Thanks! What landed us here—I’ve got to go back a bit. I spent eight years teaching at the K-12 level in Chicago, Illinois, and Newark, New Jersey, as a special educator. I was also a professor, curriculum designer, and director at Relay Graduate School of Education. Now, as you mentioned, I’m the Director of Learning Experiences. I’m a curriculum geek, so I support the design, development, and implementation of transformative learning experiences. My passion is ensuring that curriculum reflects CRT and UDL. As we prepare to expand our TLEs, that’s a goal for us as an organization—to ensure that curriculum design allows all students to see themselves in it.

Jeff Sudmayer: I got into this work about 25 years ago through Teach For America and quickly became committed to the mission of equity and creating excellent schools and learning experiences for all kids. That’s been a through-line for me. I’ve always been drawn to teaching and learning; it’s at the core of my work. At Springpoint, I get to spend about half of my time designing, experimenting with, and piloting learning experiences, and the other half coaching a small portfolio of high schools across New England on implementing these learning experiences, along with other innovative projects.

Trace Pickering: Wonderful, thank you. You both talk a lot about transformative learning experiences at Springpoint. What do you mean by that, and what do you envision it looking like for schools?

Tasia Chapman: When we talk about transformative learning experiences, we mean experiences that lead to deeper learning. We envision all learning experiences reflecting rigor and purpose, which is what makes them meaningful. Project-based learning is designed to reflect rigor and purpose, though sometimes implementation can be inconsistent. We believe deep learning occurs when students grapple with authentic tasks, are interested in their work, drive their own learning, and are curious. This often leads to that “double wow” moment where students think, “I’m doing more than I thought I could,” and see how it’s useful beyond the classroom.

Jeff Sudmayer: If we zoom out a bit, we get to visit hundreds of high school classrooms each year and talk to many students. Often, when we ask students what they’re doing and why, they might say, “I’m filling out a chart for a test.” They often don’t know why they’re doing it or feel a connection to a deeper purpose. We envision something different, where the high school day is filled with curiosity, debates, grappling with important issues, and studying topics they genuinely care about. We see rigor and purpose as intertwined, and we want students to fall in love with learning.

Trace Pickering: That resonates. So, you’ve put together a compilation called Making High School Meaningful, which outlines your ideas on purpose and rigor. Can you talk about this work, including how rigor and purpose come into play?

Jeff Sudmayer: Sure. We aim to create transformative experiences by partnering with schools. Project-based learning (PBL) is a promising vehicle for deep learning. We defined core elements of rigor and purpose—rigor involves posing open-ended questions that invite students into ambiguity and problem-solving. Purpose includes facets like authenticity, relevance, identity, and agency. For example, in a unit on gentrification, students might engage with guest speakers on different sides of the issue, adding both rigor and authenticity. These components reinforce each other to create meaningful experiences.

Trace Pickering: You’ve reframed rigor, which is often misunderstood as just harder work or more homework. That’s an important shift. Tasia, could you tell us more about the five components of a transformative learning experience?

Tasia Chapman: Sure. These components aren’t new; we synthesized them from research. The first is a driving question, which frames the learning inquiry. The second is a creative artifact, which is the product students work on, like a photo essay for a gentrification unit or a slam poem. The third is written commentary, where students explain their thinking in writing, which research shows supports creative and critical thinking. Fourth, we have an authentic exhibition where students present to stakeholders and community partners, raising the stakes as they showcase real-world applications. Lastly, metacognitive reflection helps students examine their learning, identify what works, and think about how they learn.

Trace Pickering: Authentic exhibitions are powerful, especially for teenage brains, which need work that feels meaningful and connects to the larger world. Jeff, do you see certain components as more challenging for schools to implement?

Jeff Sudmayer: Typically, schools have a driving question and a creative project. Written commentary and metacognitive reflection are less consistent, though we’re elevating metacognition lately to help students become more strategic learners who can transfer their learning. Exhibitions are also sometimes overlooked, but they are crucial for making learning real.

Trace Pickering: That makes sense. Metacognitive reflection is essential, not just at the end but throughout the learning process. It aligns with agile practices in the professional world, where teams regularly pause to reflect.

Tasia Chapman: Absolutely. Reflection shouldn’t just happen at the end; it should be ongoing so that students can apply what they’re learning as they continue their projects.

Trace Pickering: If I’m a teacher or principal in a traditional school and want to move in this direction, where do I start?

Jeff Sudmayer: Start with an audit to understand your baseline, defining what you’re looking for, like rigor and purpose. Begin small, with a coalition of interested educators, and try one unit. Gather student input, observe, debrief, and iterate based on feedback.

Tasia Chapman: Our website has a sample unit to try out, and you’re welcome to contact us for more resources.

Trace Pickering: What fears do teachers typically have about diving into this, and how do you help them overcome those?

Tasia Chapman: Some teachers worry about the length of units—our TLEs are typically 6-8 weeks. They might also think this approach only works for certain students. But our TLEs are designed with differentiation to support all students.

Jeff Sudmayer: Concerns also vary based on experience with PBL; some worry about rigor and standards. We encourage trying a unit, seeing students’ engagement, and then re-evaluating those concerns.

Trace Pickering: How do teachers transform through this process?

Jeff Sudmayer: Teachers realize the potential of their students and shift from dispensers of information to facilitators and coaches. They also rethink the value of planning versus intellectual preparation for guiding students through deeper learning.

Tasia Chapman: We want teachers to focus on engaging with the material and preparing to support students, not on creating curriculum from scratch. Our resources are designed to help with that shift.

Trace Pickering: Thank you both. For anyone interested, you can learn more about Springpoint’s work at springpointschools.org. Tasia, Jeff, thank you for joining us.

Jeff Sudmayer: Thanks, Trace.

Tasia Chapman: Thank you, everyone.

Links:

• Tasia Chatman
• Jeff Sudmyer
• Springpoint