Barbara Kurshan and Kathy Hurley on InnovateHers

On this episode of the Getting Smart Podcast, Tom Vander Ark is joined by Dr. Barbara “Bobbi” Kurshan and Kathy Hurley the co-authors of the new book InnovateHERs: Why Purpose Driven Entrepreneurial Women Rise to the Top.

Dr. Barbara “Bobbi” Kurshan, is the President of Educorp Consultants Corporation and Senior Innovation Advisor, at the Graduate School of Education, Education Entrepreneurship, University of Pennsylvania, and a former education industry entrepreneur. 

Kathy Hurley is a former senior executive for numerous educational publishing and technology companies, including IBM and Pearson. After retiring from Pearson, she was selected as a Fellow of the Advanced Leadership Initiative (ALI) at Harvard University and co-founded a global nonprofit organization, Girls Thinking Global.

Tom Vander Ark: Um, Bobbi, what is an entrepreneurial mindset?

Bobbi Kurshan: Good question. Makes sense to ask it first. An entrepreneurial mindset is a set of personality skills and traits that reflect your ability to think entrepreneurially, like an entrepreneur, to think innovatively. It includes a set of skills and traits we’ve outlined in the back of our book and a profile we’ve given to all the people featured in the book. There’s also a self-assessment of their skills, plus we’ve analyzed data from around 250 people who have taken the profile. The personality traits, or skills, are often ones you can’t change very much. You can improve them slightly and be aware of them, but they’re generally fixed. These include things like independence, preference for limited structure, nonconformity, risk acceptance, action orientation, passion, and the need to achieve.

We certainly can’t make you passionate, but we can teach you to appear more passionate or try to foster that passion. When you ask a VC about the type of company they invest in, they’ll often say that someone needs to be passionate about what they’re doing. We don’t know how to train for passion, but when it comes to other skills, we can help. We can train or teach you things like future focus, idea generation, execution, self-confidence, optimism, persistence, and interpersonal sensitivity or empathy.

So, while there’s a bit of gray area regarding which traits can be taught, there’s a distinct difference between the entrepreneurial mindset in terms of personality traits versus the skills you can learn. That’s what I’ve been studying for the last ten years in my research at Penn. It’s been fun and interesting. I’ve looked at lots of entrepreneurs and trained many of them, asking them, “Are you born an entrepreneur, or can we make you one?” We asked every single person in the book this question, and we got a fascinating set of answers.

Tom Vander Ark: You’re listening to the Getting Smart Podcast. I’m Tom Vander Ark, and today I have the pleasure of being joined by Dr. Barbara “Bobbi” Kurshan and Kathy Hurley. They’re the co-authors of a fantastic new book called InnovateHER: Why Purpose-Driven Entrepreneurial Women Rise to the Top. The book came out in April of 2022, so it must have been a pandemic labor of love, Bobbi. But you’ve been at this for a long time, right?

Kathy Hurley: Um…

Bobbi Kurshan: I’ve been writing books and working in this field for a long time. Kathy wrote a book a few years ago as well, but yes, this was a pandemic project. It kept us busy, and we got to talk to many incredible people. All the video interviews were done during the pandemic. It was a labor of pandemic love and was completed just as we were all coming out of it.

Tom Vander Ark: Bobbi, I know this has been an area of research for you for more than a decade. But Kathy, you and I have known each other for 20 years. We worked together when you were an executive at Pearson and with the Pearson Foundation in various ways. How did you connect with Bobbi and decide to write the book?

Kathy Hurley: Bobbi and I have been friends for about 35 years, and we’ve had a great admiration for each other. We’re very different, as you might imagine. Bobbi’s focus has been more on higher ed and research, while I’ve been more in the trenches with K-12 marketing and sales, and then later at the Pearson Foundation doing purpose-driven work. As we started talking about writing a book, we thought about people we knew in common and wanted to make this a global book. Bobbi and I have both traveled worldwide, and we thought it was the right time to collaborate. We brainstormed ideas and had a fantastic time planning what we wanted this to be. Interestingly, we didn’t initially choose women specifically in education, but many people in the book, even if they were in other fields like law, had an educational background. Education itself is purpose-driven, so we had a great time working on this together. Of course, we had a few tense moments, but we got through them.

Tom Vander Ark: I can imagine! Knowing both of you, I’m sure it was lively. Who came up with the name InnovateHER? It’s clever. Was that you, Bobbi?

Bobbi Kurshan: Good question. No, it wasn’t me. We have to give credit to our publisher for that. We went through many names and struggled to decide if we should include the word “education.” We kept playing around with words related to innovation, entrepreneurship, purpose-driven, and entrepreneurial, just moving the words around. Ultimately, our publisher helped put it together, and Kathy and I loved it. We had to research to ensure it wasn’t already owned by someone else. Once we confirmed the URL was available, we settled on it.

Tom Vander Ark: My daughters and granddaughters love it, too. It’s a great title. So, Bobbi, I love the exploration of cultivating and teaching an entrepreneurial mindset. Why the focus on women specifically? When and how did you decide it should focus on women entrepreneurs?

Bobbi Kurshan: Great question. Initially, we didn’t set out to write a book solely on women. My research has generally focused on the entrepreneurial mindset, and our writer and researcher on the book, Lars Bullian, and I began dissecting the data. We started noticing patterns around women, which is when I reached out to Kathy. The themes that emerged seemed to match so perfectly with the skills and traits we had been studying, and it highlighted a different perspective women had.

Tom Vander Ark: Women have already surpassed men significantly in terms of higher education enrollment and completion. We’re beginning to see parity in many professions, but in entrepreneurship and investment in entrepreneurship, it’s still a male-dominated field. Do you think this gap in entrepreneurship is just a historical one that will close over time? Or is your book addressing some systemic issues within entrepreneurship that need attention?

Bobbi Kurshan: Two things came up. You’re right; we’re seeing parity in many fields, but not yet in entrepreneurship. This lack of parity even extends to professional schools—women are now the majority in medical, dental, vet, and law schools, but not in business schools. This gap may influence the disparity in entrepreneurship. Another area where women excel is their return on investment. Women return more per dollar than men from startups and venture funds. Men typically return about 31 cents on the dollar, whereas women return about 76 cents. This difference may be because there are fewer women, so they tend to be more calculated and thoughtful in their risk-taking. However, women’s returns generally occur over a longer period, so patient investors are essential.

Kathy Hurley: Right. In my experience, women tend to perform better in 21st-century skills or soft skills. In my first book, Real Women, Real Leaders, we found that women generally excelled in these skills. Although they might not score as high in financial acuity or strategic planning, women have developed problem-solving, optimism, and communication skills, which tech companies now highly value in team players. Doing a global book allowed us to see that women worldwide, including South America and Africa, demonstrate these skills. Interestingly, most of the women we interviewed mentioned their mothers as mentors, showing them how to juggle multiple responsibilities and be flexible. We felt it was the right time to highlight these strengths.

Tom Vander Ark: The future is female for all the reasons you’ve described. I think us men have probably screwed things up pretty badly, and we need to count on our daughters and granddaughters to make things better. One of the things I love about your book is the case studies. You have about 30 of them, each chapter featuring around three in-depth stories that illustrate your points. Did you know half of these people already, or were they all new?

Bobbi Kurshan: Between Kathy and me, we knew everyone personally and asked them to participate. Our networks overlapped, so we probably both knew about half of them, while the other half came from other connections. We started with a list of about 100 people and narrowed it down based on who was willing to take the assessment and give us their time. We wanted to make sure the book was demographically diverse, with a range of ages, geographies, and industries represented.

Kathy Hurley: Yes, we wanted diversity in terms of nonprofits, for-profits, smaller companies, larger companies—you name it. If you look through the back of the book at who we interviewed, you’ll see we met those criteria.

Tom Vander Ark: Bobbi, I want to delve into this idea of the entrepreneurial mindset. You’ve laid out traits that capture what’s needed to produce impact, spot opportunity, and make a difference. I wonder if we still, as a society, teach girls to be conforming and “proper” while boys are encouraged to be risk-takers. Do you think these societal norms hinder the development of some of these entrepreneurial traits?

Bobbi Kurshan: Maybe I’m viewing the world with rose-colored glasses, but I hope it’s changing. As a university professor, I see young women coming into my classes challenging norms. They take on leadership roles and believe they can do anything. I see a shift in younger women and also in what the workplace expects from them. For instance, at Noodle, a company founded by John Katzman, there’s a different expectation for the women he hires and the roles they’re placed in. We did a book talk for him, and it was clear he believes in empowering women in significant ways. I think we’re seeing change. Women of previous generations, like mine and Kathy’s, might have faced more constraints, but all the women we interviewed had taken on the challenge of not conforming. They were independent, looked at risks thoughtfully, and displayed self-confidence, though they were also conscious of impostor syndrome—something men don’t admit to as openly.

We found that women entrepreneurs are risk-takers, like all entrepreneurs, but they tend to take more calculated risks. They’re generally more thoughtful, looking at the data before making decisions. Unlike male CEOs, you don’t see them jumping off mountains or flying into space. They assess risks differently, showing more empathy and interpersonal sensitivity, traits that are essential in their roles as leaders.

Kathy Hurley: We also found that women are often more authentic. They’re not afraid to show empathy or express that they care. I’ve been in the industry long enough to see that women treat difficult situations, like letting someone go, with a personal touch. They’re more likely to offer support, help someone transition, or find another position, whereas men might look at it from an organizational standpoint, focusing more on restructuring.

Tom Vander Ark: I want to ask a couple of questions about education. When I look at the traits and skills you’ve outlined, it strikes me as a strong framework for student outcomes—a portrait of a graduate that high schools and colleges could adopt to focus on building an entrepreneurial mindset. Do you think this profile could serve as a good model for student learning goals in high schools?

Bobbi Kurshan: Absolutely. I wouldn’t want it to turn into a personality assessment like the Myers-Briggs, where everyone is defined by a type. But I do think it’s valuable for people to get a sense of their entrepreneurial mindset. Teachers, for example, could use this to understand their approach to problem-solving in the classroom. Recognizing one’s strengths and ensuring a team has diverse strengths can be incredibly powerful.

Kathy Hurley: I agree, and people are already using the Entrepreneurial Mindset Profile (EMP) with their teams to understand the different strengths on their team and to complement each other’s skills.

Bobbi Kurshan: We’ve published a white paper on our website that explains how to use the EMP, breaking down the various traits and showing how they might manifest in different situations. For example, if you’re strong in a particular area, here’s how you might react under certain circumstances.

Tom Vander Ark: If a high school took this profile seriously, valuing traits like independence, nonconformity, risk acceptance, and future focus, it would suggest a very different educational experience. Wouldn’t it?

Bobbi Kurshan: Oh, absolutely. If I could redesign high school or college, I’d want students to take this profile upon application and, instead of writing an essay, present a problem they want to solve. Then, I’d design a course sequence based on their strengths, connecting them with experts and relevant courses. It would be a learner-centered approach, co-constructing their learning journey.

Tom Vander Ark: That’s a beautiful picture—learners co-creating a path that builds their entrepreneurial mindset. I think that would give students a real sense of agency and purpose.

Bobbi Kurshan: Yes, it’s the next stage of project-based learning (PBL). At Penn, we’ve done a lot of work on PBL, and I know you’ve written about it extensively. This approach takes PBL further, focusing on each student’s strengths and allowing them to explore big problems.

Tom Vander Ark: Kathy, if you could design “Hurley High,” a school that enhances entrepreneurial traits, what would it look like?

Kathy Hurley: I think the idea of a “profile of a graduate” is a great place to start, similar to what organizations like EdLeader21 and P21 have done. It would be interesting to see how this could be incorporated into a student’s profile of a graduate. It’s about changing the model to focus on skills and traits that are essential for the future.

Tom Vander Ark: We had Ken Kay on the podcast recently. His new book, Redefining Student Success, suggests that high schools and colleges should be focusing on big, complex problems without easy answers, building leadership and problem-solving skills along the way. His vision aligns with yours.

Kathy Hurley: Yes, I’ve talked with Ken, and we’ve discussed these ideas. He emphasizes that it’s essential not only to reach students but also to educate parents about why these skills are important. I recall one parent whose daughter didn’t get a job at Google despite being valedictorian. The reason? She lacked strong verbal communication skills and wasn’t a good problem solver. Google didn’t just want an answer; they wanted to see her process. This experience highlights the need for students, parents, and communities to understand that these skills are critical for career success.

Tom Vander Ark: Chapters 3 through 6 of your book explore some fascinating combinations of traits, like passion and empathy, or calculated risk and optimism. Are these combinations meant to represent archetypes illustrated through your case studies?

Bobbi Kurshan: Yes, exactly. Those combinations are based on research from the EMP, linking specific traits and skills to archetypes. The stories in each chapter align with these combinations, and at the end of each chapter, we include a case study that provides a real-world example of someone using these skills in their career or venture.

Kathy Hurley: Unlike my previous book, which focused on general leadership stories, this one incorporates specific skills and examples to show readers that there are multiple ways to lead and succeed. The diversity in the examples has resonated with readers, offering valuable insights.

Tom Vander Ark: Bobbi, Chapter 7 discusses “internal inhibitHERs.” I love that term. What’s an example of an internal inhibitor, and how do you turn it into an “activatHER”?

Bobbi Kurshan: We created that section because certain themes didn’t quite fit into the other chapters but were still significant. Internal inhibitors can include one’s upbringing, financial background, or early life circumstances. For instance, some of our interviewees grew up with single parents or in challenging environments, like Silver McDonald, who was raised in a commune, or Jane Kubesek, who grew up in a trailer park. These experiences shape people and impact their careers.

Kathy Hurley: Right, and some of our participants took jobs specifically to pay back student loans before they could pursue entrepreneurial dreams. Lisa Hall, for example, waited until she had the financial means before fully diving into entrepreneurship.

Tom Vander Ark: Kathy, what’s an example of an external inhibitor?

Kathy Hurley: External inhibitors can include things like financial barriers, access to capital, or even societal expectations. Many women in the book encountered speed bumps in their careers but learned not to let those setbacks define them. They pushed forward, knowing that failure can be a valuable learning experience.

Bobbi Kurshan: A big external inhibitor is financial support. Women still struggle to access capital, whether they’re starting a business, trying to innovate within a corporation, or driving change in a nonprofit or government setting.

Tom Vander Ark: It’s exciting to see new funds emerging to support women, especially women of color, but there’s still a long way to go. Kathy, why do mentors matter so much?

Kathy Hurley: Great question. Every woman we talked to in this book mentioned a mentor, and it wasn’t always another woman or someone from work. Sometimes, it was a family member. Mentors can come from anywhere. The word “mentor” is often thrown around, but real mentorship is about guiding someone and helping them grow. I had a mentor, Marjorie Carden, who played a pivotal role in my career. It was one of my first female mentors, and she even wrote the foreword for my previous book.

When I left Pearson, interestingly, many young men reached out for mentorship. They recognized that I had been successful and saw an opportunity to learn from me. But women often juggle many responsibilities and may be hesitant to ask for help. I think that’s changing, but mentorship is crucial. I’ve also gained new mentors through my involvement on nonprofit boards. It’s about putting yourself out there and learning from different people.

Tom Vander Ark: Bobbi, if you could offer one piece of advice to a young woman inspired by your book, what would it be?

Bobbi Kurshan: My advice is, if you have a solution to a big problem, go after it. If you’re passionate and have a mission, that’s the essence of being a purpose-driven entrepreneur. Whether you work within an organization or start something on your own, focus on the problem you want to solve. One of my favorite investors always says he only invests in ventures addressing a significant problem. That’s the foundation of entrepreneurship—you need that entrepreneurial mindset to tackle meaningful challenges.

Tom Vander Ark: Kathy, any advice for teachers or parents inspired by your book?

Kathy Hurley: For teachers and parents, my advice would be to stay open-minded and network outside your usual circles. The world is incredibly complex, and we all need to listen more and value others’ perspectives. Take, for example, Lisa Schmucki, who founded EdWeb. She faced numerous naysayers but persisted, saying, “This is an idea I believe in, and I’m going to stick with it.” Now, EdWeb has over a million users, thousands of webinars, and is widely used in schools for professional development. Lisa’s story shows the drive required to be an entrepreneur. She didn’t let criticism deter her. So, I think it’s essential for teachers and parents to encourage persistence and open-mindedness in students and young people.

Tom Vander Ark: We’ve been talking to Dr. Barbara “Bobbi” Kurshan and Kathy Hurley, authors of the book InnovateHER: Why Purpose-Driven Entrepreneurial Women Rise to the Top. Bobbi and Kathy, it’s been such a treat to spend time with you both. Thank you for being on the podcast.

Bobbi Kurshan: Thank you for having us, Tom. It was a pleasure.

Kathy Hurley: Yes, thank you, Tom. This was fun. You ask excellent questions.

Tom Vander Ark: Thanks to Mason Pasha, our producer, for making this all possible, and thanks to the whole Getting Smart team. Until next week, keep leading, keep learning, and keep innovating for equity.

Links:

• Amazon Link
• Barbara Kurshan LinkedIn
• Kathy Hurley LinkedIn
• Innovatehers resources
• EMP Whitepaper
• Ken Kay on Redefining Student Success
• Innovation Ecosystem 
• Newsletter Subscription